Some say we shouldn't have the death penalty.

[bambam]

???????"KvH...a "big lie" into the mix about Hitler"


KvH, can you please explain what you are referring to as the "Big Lie" about Hitler????

What inside knowledge do you have about Hitler that history seems to have missed

[The PIT]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn
But why should a lower IQ score make someone exempt from the same punishment anyone else would get for the same crime? If a truly severely retarded person killed someone by accident, because he didn't know his own strength or what he was doing that's very sad, and perhaps in some cases leniency should be shown. But in no circumstances should society be exposed to this danger again.

Surely the responsibilty falls to the person supervising this person. If they fail why should the person with low IQ be blamed for them being incompetant.

If someone is mentally ill, the time to help them is BEFORE they kill, and yes, REAL mental illness might be a reason to not seek the death penalty, but only in rare instances. Would you think Charles Manson or Hannibal Lecter or a falsely "insane" person like the murderer in "15 Minutes" should be particularly spared? They are more dangerous than any other type of killer... why would you give them special leniency? It's completely irresponsible.

Agree with you there.

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by The PIT
Question Kvh are you referring to people of low IQ, or to people that do stupid things becuase they can't been arsed to think what possible ramifications of their actions could be??

If you base mental retardation upon IQ scores, as most people do, being of a low IQ should not ABSOLVE one of responsibility. There are all sorts of extenuating circumstances other than mental retardation, as well.. did the person you killed murder your wife and kids? Were you in a drunken rage when you killed that guy with a barstool? Either of these would be pretty bogus excuses for denying one's responsibility, in my opinion, but at which extenuating circumstance do you stop?

My first concern in every case is a practical one: Is this person a continuing threat? If the answer is yes, than they should never be released into society again. How do you determine if he is a continuing threat? This is why we should cultivate good judgement, rather than trying by every means to destroy it.

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by bambam
???????"KvH...a "big lie" into the mix about Hitler"


KvH, can you please explain what you are referring to as the "Big Lie" about Hitler????

What inside knowledge do you have about Hitler that history seems to have missed

The big lie is that I am somehow he. (DUH!)

[The PIT]

KVH Okay I was using IQ as an example but you've basically answered my question. Now can the rest see where you're coming from?

[Admiral]

The big lie is that I am somehow he. (DUH!)

Don't think goldstein implied that (or who knows), guess he just served you a bit of your own medicine in a subtle (or not so subtle) way.

[UtwigMU]

I'd rather not post but:

capital punishment, 19th century voting system, "democratically" appointed president in province where his brother is in charge, disrespect for geneva convention, military court convictions, ICC, Kyoto, corrupt oil industry bribing politics, minority migrants owning the media, train crashes, poor education system, politics churning out cheap nationalist and "good-evil" rhetorics, citizen controll, ministry for national security...

Is that a country in Africa or somewhere else in 3d world....

[Joel]

I'd rather not post but:

the pioneer of freedom and self-government in the modern world, the nation that helped liberate Europe from the Nazis and the winner of the Cold War, and the welcoming destination for millions of immigrants, a people who cured tuberculosis and polio, landed a man on the moon, and invented the telephone, the airplane, the television, the computer, the ATM, and a host of other contraptions that have bettered the lot of humanity

Is that a country in Africa or somewhere else in 3d world....

I guess there are always two sides to the story.

Joel

[KvHagedorn]

Surely the responsibilty falls to the person supervising this person. If they fail why should the person with low IQ be blamed for them being incompetant.

With this much responsibility, surely those who supervise the mentally retarded are the best-paid and most revered members of the community.

[UtwigMU]

On capital punishment.

- it's a homicide in the name of society
(they put homicide on form as the cause of death)
- it costs more than imprisonment (paroles, rulings, special imprisonment)
- you cannot repair it if the person is innocent. The state appointed lawyers for those who cannot afford them get 5$/hour.
- the US (anglosaxon) law system is jury based where emotions play somewhat a bigger role
- Even Serbia and Montenegro (the countries that were part of the Yougoslavia that Nato struck - "teh axis of evil") have abolished it.
- You cannot become member of European council untill you abolish capital punisment
- Some controversial cases involving gruesome deeds attract public attention and they deter perception from less publicly interesting cases.
- As a deterrent from commiting crime (Scaring the would-be criminals) it's ineffective. Crimerate does not decrease if you install it.
- It mainly acts as entertainment for the public - like public execution in medievals: Panem et circenses. (bread and plays)

IMO the reform of law system would contribute more to crime-rate reduction than capital punishment. OJ Simpson got away because he was rich. The guys who cannot afford good lawyers get executed. The alienated people already do not perceive themselves as part of society and such things picture the system as unfair and violating rules as act of rebellion.


On the other hand. If someone hurt someone close to me I don't know how would I react and what my view on capital punishment would be then.

[Dr Mordrid]

1. Fine by me

2. So what? I don't guage justice by its cost.

3. This is where we agree. This is why I think only eyewitness and peer reviewed forensic evidence should be acceptable in death penalty cases. NO circumstantial evidence and no junk science.

We also have to accept the facts that;

a. nothing is 100%

b. that there are a lot of short-term prisoners and prison employees who have been killed by lifers that evaded execution by law or legal shenanigans. What do we say to their families?

4. I don't care what others do....their country is their business and ours is ours.

5. As far as I'm concerned anyone who would join the EU is nuts anyhow because IMHO the EU itself has laws that violate human and speech rights. You guys are eventually going to regret a lot of the powers you're giving that organization.

6. So what? Gruesome deeds deserve it even more. They get what they pay for.

7. Couldn't care less. It's revenge and closure for society, the victims and their families. It also stops them from killing anyone else while in prison (guards, other prisoners not under death sentence etc.). Lots of examples of those.

8. Entertainment; no. Satisfaction that the SOB isn't sucking air anymore; you betcha.

IMHO what's absent is certainty of punishment during the execution. It's too painless a death to give 'em the needle as is the case in most States now. It should be unpleasant at the receiving end long enough for them to expierience it....at the very least.

In the case of the snipers: burn 'em at the stake....or worse.

Dr. Mordrid

[UtwigMU]

EU = European Union
EC = European Council

EC =! EU

There are ~50 countries on european continent

There are 15 members of EU
Most of European countries are memebers of European council

We can discuss EU in another thread - I have mixed emotions about it, but current American foreign politics is certainly benefiting EU. Similar to French and Austro-Hungarian foreign politics during risorgimento and reunion of Germany under Bismarck in second half of 19th century.

[The PIT]

Eu EC is a load of crap and will fail in the long run.

Dr M foresic evideance had been fixed in this country in the past. This was gentic testing. It went all the way to court. X person was guilty and the bloke who did the crime strangley stood up in court in the middle of trail and admitted to doing the crime.
The last I heard and this was years ago the person orginally charged was suing and the police were looking into what when wrong. Basically it was covered up.
Like you say nothing is 100%

[KvHagedorn]

Well, Utwig, if it is your desire to be more exact about things,

- Capital punishment costs more because of the extra care taken to be as certain as possible that we aren't screwing up. I don't think we should spend so much money on these people, but this is to placate the irrationally emotional bleeding hearts who insist upon it.

- You cannot repair the damage to a person's psyche if you have let him rot in prison for some years, either (Assuming he has not been shivved-that is, murdered- by some other inmate who has been hardened further by this environment.) Which brings us to a point.. are you actively involved in opening old cases to try to exonerate wrongfully convicted murderers? How many people really do this? You should understand that the world does not remotely resemble Dancer in the Dark, where sweet little Björks are quickly and viciously hanged under extremely spurious circumstances. (I could write a book on how ridiculous this movie is, but it doesn't matter.. it appeals to the emotions only, not to logic.) Most of the people convicted of murder are horrendous individuals who leave no doubt about their guilt.

- You are arguing against trial by jury? I have to admit that after seeing the OJ case, where a Black lawyer guided the selection of a nearly all black jury, and then made his case to let OJ go because one of the cops was a "racist" (he had once made a comment after being exposed to gang warfare in south LA for years) my faith in trial by jury has become quite conditional.

- Serbia and Montenegro were not mentioned as being in the "Axis of Evil." In fact, the Bosnian war and the Kosovo problem were over before GWB became president. And what does it prove that they have abolished it? That their new government is overly willing to placate the most fashionable opinions of the day, due to the Serbs' horrendous history? Big deal.

- Who gives a damn about the European Council? Are you speaking of the Council of Europe? Well, I went to their website to see what they were all about, and my first impression was a telling one.. Here is the headline for today from their website:

Council of Europe's deep emotion at the Moscow's Dubrovka Theatre outcome

http://www.coe.int/PortalT.asp

What a bunch of idiots! This organization must go through millions of hankies every day with all the teary-eyed emotional, sensitive crap they spew. And another irony.. they seem to wholeheartedly support euthanasia! Yes, for society to murder old people is alright, but to murder murderers is somehow barbaric! I won't even go into the rest of their putrescent views.

-I agree that the death penalty isn't much of a deterrent. Do you think it is more of a deterrent to treat criminals the way they are treated in "civilized European" countries? In Holland, you can murder someone and spend perhaps 4 or 5 years in one of their country club "prisons," where the state buys you 4 magazine subscriptions, gives you a private cell with a TV, recreational facilities, and nutritious meals. Then they let you out! (Oh, that's no good.. I need to go kill someone else so I can get some more of this "civilized" treatment!) You wouldn't agree to the type of brutality that would be a real deterrent, so let's forget about that, which brings us to your next point about bread and circuses (this was Roman not medieval).. I have not heard of any instance in which a film crew was invited in to show an execution on live TV. I certainly have not seen any.

-I agree that the rich get far better lawyers than the poor, but public defenders make a lot more than $5 per hour (which is even below minimum wage)

[thop]

did you really watch dancer in the dark kvh?