Local (Israel) news

[Dogbert]

Last night, a terrorist broke into the "Hermesh" settlement running and shooting at people. 2 14 year old girls were murdered from close range, another woman was murdered and a few were wounded as well.

[thop]

things like this make you wonder why there is still so much hate on both sides. it leads to nothing.
they were not the last girls that got killed, unfortunately.

[Dogbert]

Why knowingly kill children ? Those two girls were shot dead from close range.
Even in Moscow's theater they've let the children out.

[lecter]

It's simple...because so do you guys. Unfortunately for everyone involved, the concept of sharing for the common good is lost in your area

[thop]

i only see one way to resolve the conflict. move all civilians out of israel for a week, declare war and let the idiots from both sides kill each other, move the people back in.

actually the solution is a lot more simple and everyone knows it. give the palestinians their own country. it will happen some day anyway so why not accelerate it and save lifes.

[RichL]

The problem is, the Palestinians want the same bit of land as the Israelis.
Merely their own country isnt going to be good enough.

[Umfriend]

Last saturday, a man who tried to intervene between two men fighting in a bar was kicekd and beaten to death by those same two men.

About a week ago, two young people were driving their scooter just past an elderly woman. Another guy told the two youngsters to show a bit of respect to the elderly and was kicked to death for for that.

Local news form the Netherlands....

Dogbert, I know nothing about the incident you described, but it may be that the guy running around wasn;t even looking and thus not aiming at children per se. Just like the collateral damage Israeli rockets and tanks do occasionally.

There are madman everywhere, but under certain circumstances it is easier to see how they get mad then in others....

Umf

[Dogbert]

Thop, I wish it was that easy. If you check the PA, you'll find it's very fractioned and sadly, Yasser Arafat DOESN'T control all the fractions there.
Assume he'll accept this or that proposition for 'the Palestinian country' there will be some fractions who won't, especially those under control/influence of hizbollah (yesturday an explosive expert Canadian citizen working for hizbollah was arrested here). Those fractions will continue terrorising Israel.

Then what ?

On more actual level, Arafat knows that. Because of that, he doesn't accept any solution that doesn't include full control of Temple mount and east Jerusalem. Even if proposed with it, Palestinian children's text books talk about the liberation of Jaffa, Acco and many other current and old cities where Arabs live(d).

To be certain of what I say, Hanna Aschrawi who was a very prominent figure during the last few years, is now against Arafat and his new Parliament. Believe me when I say this: even if the Israeli government steps down and let's the PA take full control over all Israel, there won't be peace.
The best proof of that would be our neighbouring countries. None of them is democratic. Most of the people there are poor and opressed. How do you think the Jews would be treated under such a government ? Open the histroy books from the 19th century and you'll know.

Don't ask me for a solution because I don't have one. I just know that knowingly killing children is horrible.

[Umfriend]

RichL, I think there are a lot of Palestinians that would settle for their own country, not all of it?

Umf

[Dogbert]

Umfriend,

Assume I'll torture you and your family, make you mad as hell. Would it be a good reason for you to kill a 14 year old girl ?

There is no reason, only excuses. Cause if there was a reason, then how would the world react if that stupid jewish underground managed blowing up and poisoning kindergandens all over Germany right after WWII ?
Thank god they were arrested and locked up.

[Umfriend]

Dogbert, you are IMHO very right in pointing to the difficulties in negotiating with the PA and the Arab countries in general. I may be plain stupid or worse, but I wonder whether it would not be easier for Israel to:
1. Agree with PA on what territory they get (preferrably Gaza and all hmm what we call "Westelijke Jordaan Oever" except for Jerushalaem
2. If you suffer attacks on Israel, attack that country like th eUS did with Afghanistan.

The thing is, that currently, probably any and all Palestinians view the present situation as one where they are occupied and oppressed (by Israel). But if they had their own country, then it might be easier for them to feel that peace is their responisbilty too, being a nation and all.

Also, if there is any arab country where democracy might get a hold, my guess is it would be with the palestinians as no other Arab people has spread out over the world as much as they have, and some of them may have learned something....

Then again, I may be an ignorant fool.

Umf

[Umfriend]

There is no reason, only excuses

Dogbert, I did not mean to try to justify that horrible act. I did not even try (may have seemed like it, but that was not my intention, truly) to say that the terrorist attack was less evil than what happened over here.

Assume I'll torture you and your family, make you mad as hell. Would it be a good reason for you to kill a 14 year old girl ?

NO.

Umf

[Dogbert]

Originally posted by Umfriend
Dogbert, you are IMHO very right in pointing to the difficulties in negotiating with the PA and the Arab countries in general. I may be plain stupid or worse, but I wonder whether it would not be easier for Israel to:
1. Agree with PA on what territory they get (preferrably Gaza and all hmm what we call "Westelijke Jordaan Oever" except for Jerushalaem
2. If you suffer attacks on Israel, attack that country like th eUS did with Afghanistan.

Brilliant idea, took lot's of people and money to come to it more than once. You share the same idea many people do.

The problems are:

1. They want Jerusalem, no matter what. It has been proposed already in condition for no more claims. Arafat denied.

2. Israel can't do what the U.S is allowed. See the "Yom Kipur" war. We were a few km from Damascus and Cairo when Russia threatened in a nuclear crisis.

Many right winged people here share your idea. Regretfully, tha PA doesn't. (now imagine what ideas the left wing has here )

[Umfriend]

AFAIK (but I am not very well informed) the "best" offer sofar left the PA with part of Jeruzalem (and I see no reason why the PA should have even a sqaure inch of it) and lots of unconected spots of land on the east bank (is that the English term?) because loads of setlements where to stay Israeli.

I do not think the Yom Kipur war can be compared, if only due to the different global political situation. Egypt and Syria were rather close to the USSR at the time, and my suggestion actually pertained to the to be formed Palestinian nation, not Egypt and Syria. I think the world, including Russia, views terrorism differently today from then.

Who are those right winged ppl? AFAIK, right winged ppl suggest to kick the palistinians out of Ha'aretz Jisrael altogether?

Uhm, what ideas do the left wingers have. What ideas do you have?

Umf

P.S. the "Brilliant idea", was that sarcastic or genuine?

[Dogbert]

I wasn't sarcastic at all.
During the peace process with Egypt, M.Beging (Israel's Prime minister) wanted to return Gaza to Egypt with Sinai. The Egyptians refused.

The right winged people here (non extreme) are ready to return the west bank and Gaza. They're even ready to pass Arab cities inside Israel (Um El Fahem) to the Palestinian's authority.

The left winged people are ready to give whatever they want. Including uprooting Jewish settlements and non-settlements for anywhere. note: many settlements are on Jewish owned soil legally bought from previous Arab owners many many years ago.
Yes, the area is supposed to be under PA control (law) but the owners are Jewish.
The extreme left is ready to jump into the sea and start swimming back to the concentration camps right away.


About me, I'm with the (non extreme) right winged guys ideas - Give them the minimum possible and let them sod off.