Agree or Disagree

[Joel]

I agree that there are a few, a very very small percentage, that are what we would call extremely lucky or extremely unlucky but for the most part I think that most of us are where we are at through our own efforts or non efforts.

Another quote from this book.

According to the IRS, there are more than five million millionaires in the United States, most of then self-made. There are almost 300 billionaires. most of whom started with little or nothing. More than 100,000 people become millionaires in the United States each year, at a rate of approximately one every five minutes. Are all these people just lucky?

I use to believe that just being in the right place at the right time was what was needed but now I am starting to see that putting yourself into the right place at the right time is really what it takes.

I personally do not believe that anyone, no matter what their financial status is, should be forced to give up what they have worked so hard to achieve.

As for those who have taken advantage of others to get to where they are I believe in the old adage of 'what goes around comes around'. And even our Bible, which so many people discount, have these same words of wisdom. "Whatsoever a man soweth, that also shall he reap." Could not the decline of corporate America be an example of these laws of 'Cause and Effect'????

Joel

[Wombat]

What "decline of corporate America"? Corporations are wealthier and stronger now in this country than they have been since the first turnings of the Industrial Revolution.

Also, that's a pretty low number of millionaires to me. Only 5 million, in a country where so many baby boomers are aging? It takes about $1 million to retire these days. It's probably going to take me about $3 million when my time comes.

[thop]

we have a saying here in germany: reichtum verpflichtet (babelfish spits out: wealth obligates).

[Joel]

Corporations are wealthier and stronger now in this country than they have been since the first turnings of the Industrial Revolution.

If that is so true then why are so many corporations laying people off left and right??? I'll you why because it immediately increases the bottom line thus making them look like they are doing better than they really are. I know several accountants in big fortune 500 companies.

Only 5 million, in a country where so many baby boomers are aging?

Maybe some of them have decided that why should they work so hard to achieve success and fortune, which is possible for everyone, only to have the liberal do gooders come along and take it away and give it to someone who won't even try. Actually I know some who think that way. As you might be able to tell I don't believe in goverment sponsored give away programs.

Joel

[Wombat]

Maybe some of them have decided that why should they work so hard to achieve success and fortune, which is possible for everyone, only to have the liberal do gooders come along and take it away and give it to someone who won't even try. Actually I know some who think that way. As you might be able to tell I don't believe in goverment sponsored give away programs.

More likely people had the money, but then lost it when all their pension plans were plundered by corporate execs who will only pay a pittance for their crimes.

[Joel]

I agree, that did happen to a small percentage. So what is your solution???? And remember now I don't believe in government sponsored programs. They don't seem to work too well. Just look at the dieing Social Security System.

Personally I would have never put everything into a company 401K plan that forced me into put everything into company stock. There are outside IRAs and annuities. Now don't get me wrong I do feel for those that did loss everything but I do also feel that alot of good has come from this. More people are doing their homework rather that blindly being led into these things. I know one of the first things I did was to look at my 401K and redistribute the money so if the bottom did fall out on the company's stock then I wouldn't be left with nothing.

Joel

[Wombat]

So what is your solution????

Let's see...

Serious jail time in a real jail.
Complete forfeiture of all assets (no reason for them to have million-dollar mansions after they took soo much more from others)
An auditing oversight board that isn't run by corrupt people themselves.
Consulting firms should get more than "probation." It should have been disbanded.

[Joel]

Serious jail time in a real jail.

I see no problem with that. It will cause one of two things. Either it pushs others to be more honest or they will look for other ways that will minimize their chances of getting caught.

Complete forfeiture of all assets (no reason for them to have million-dollar mansions after they took soo much more from others)

And of course who will handle this redistribution of the assets that is it they ever do get redistributed. More than likely the government will just keep it for themselves.

An auditing oversight board that isn't run by corrupt people themselves.

Well that leaves the government out.

Consulting firms should get more than "probation." It should have been disbanded.

Well with these cases there was so much passing of the buck that no one was ever really sure who was completely at fault. And of course by completely bisbanding those firms you just throw that many more people into unemployment.

Joel

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by thop
we have a saying here in germany: reichtum verpflichtet (babelfish spits out: wealth obligates).

Also known as

Nobles Oblige..

And

From those to whom much is given, much also is expected..

I wish everyone would live up to this chivalrous ideal. They do in fairy tales.

Really, since we overthrew the nobility, we also overthrew its ideals and high principles. Americans might think all these millionaires and billionaires being self-made is a wonderful thing, but these people did not grow up being instilled with manners and chivalry. They had nothing and had to scrap like mad to get where they are. Now they are hardened predators who guard their hoards like a rottweiler guards his dinner.

Since we have overthrown civilization, we need a law, perhaps in the constitution, that no person in a corporation or other entity of business is allowed to make more in total compensation than twenty times the total compensation of the lowest paid person in that corporation. That means when Intel gives Andy Grove a million shares of stock, they have to give at least 50,000 of the same shares to everyone else in the company, including temps and janitors. The government does not get involved except to enforce this law.

[Joel]

Americans might think all these millionaires and billionaires being self-made is a wonderful thing, but these people did not grow up being instilled with manners and chivalry. They had nothing and had to scrap like mad to get where they are. Now they are hardened predators who guard their hoards like a rottweiler guards his dinner.

Although I do agree that there are a few out there that are that way I do think you are being unfair to the majority of them. Actually my experiences lately have been that it is those who don't have a whole lot that are more like the rottweilers than those who do.

Here's a little something for you to ponder.

Do you believe, as The Bible says, that 'money is the root of all evil'? Many people do.

But for the sake of setting that broken record straight, here is what the Bible really says: "Love of money is the root of all evil." (I Timothy 6:10)

You see, it's not money itself, but your being crazy about money, that begets your problems. And isn't it true that nothing makes you crazier than not having enough money?

"Lack of money is the root of all evil" quipped George Bernard Shaw in Maxims for Revolutionists.

Do you think he could be right?

Joel

[KvHagedorn]

Do you believe, as The Bible says, that 'money is the root of all evil'? Many people do.

But for the sake of setting that broken record straight, here is what the Bible really says: "Love of money is the root of all evil." (I Timothy 6:10)

You see, it's not money itself, but your being crazy about money, that begets your problems. And isn't it true that nothing makes you crazier than not having enough money?

"Lack of money is the root of all evil" quipped George Bernard Shaw in Maxims for Revolutionists.

Do you think he could be right?

You may have a point here. But the rich will never pay people more than they absolutely have to. Billionaire CEOs saying payroll is what is keeping profitablity down and laying people off while they continue to wantonly line their own pockets. It turns my stomach. If people are so in want that they become rottweilers because of the stratification of society and the destruction of the middle class through corporate greed, all the more reason to take steps.

We are setting the clock back to the 400s in many ways.. to the early feudal period, where CEOs are the only people with any rights, just like feudal lords. They buy the government, after all.. no politician listens to voters anymore, just the rich corporate pricks who "put him there" as he believes, since they gave him money for his campaign and used their influence for him in return for doing whatever they want the government to do for them.

Japan actually has some of these pay ratio measures in line, or used to. It's why they couldn't find anyone to work at McDonald's there awhile back.. why would workers there want to be treated like the serfs are treated in America?

[Wombat]

It's why they couldn't find anyone to work at McDonald's there awhile back.. why would workers there want to be treated like the serfs are treated in America?

Methinks the "why" is rather that Japan's very nationalistic culture causes them to shun foreign businesses.

[KvHagedorn]

No, they actually thought they could get away with paying people near-minimum wage there..

[Joel]

So I take it then that you agree with the politician and that others who have done well should be forced into give some of that away????

Joel

[KvHagedorn]

No, I don't allow simpleminded politicians like him to think for me.

Read my first post again.