Show me the money !

[Dogbert]

Originally posted by thop
it seems i'm already knee deep in it when i don't even see the propaganda. pls help me

You want propaganda ? I'll show you propaganda:

How many people are dieing or being maimed in Israel every month ? 20 ? 200 ?
Do you know that hundreds of people are dieing in some countries in Africa every single DAY ?
Why don't you see them on the news ?
Who decides what's "news" and what's not ?
Why does the EU give 10,000,000 Euro (yes, 10 million Euro) to the PA every month which never reach the population, yet they don't give a dime to all the starving diseased people in Africa ?

Because there isn't a pan-african lobby.
Because the people of Congo didn't blow up building all over Europe for what the Belgians did to them.
Because for most of the world, the blacks in Africe have less meaning than the stray cats in their street.
Why ? Because they have no economical influence over them. They don't put them in risk. They're not right under their god damn window. They're black animals dieing far away, that's why.

The EU is paying extortion to the PA. Better give them 10m to keep them from blowing up here or hurting our interests in Arab countries.

Think...!

[thop]

I see there is another Propaganda in full effect here.

[GNEP]

The EU and the member countries do in fact give large wads of money to various African countries in aid and FDI. Not sure how much or to whom, but EUR 10mln is chickenfeed.

[James_D]

Aye I agree with GNEP, that is peanuts, just little Norway give 10 mill Euro in aid to various african countries. In addition Norway also reduce the debt that African countries have to Norway. The same goes for EU.


James.

[Dogbert]

Just wondering, are you talking about this:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/africa/08/18/un.africanrefugees.ap/

This:

http://www.worldlink.co.uk/stories/storyReader$694

or maybe this ?

http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20001208/03/

Please show me the figures...

[GNEP]

http://www.dfid.gov.uk/SID/Main/index.asp

- for the UK.
As an example, 2000/2001 (most recent available): Mozambique - total UK public purse going to the country ~ GBP 45mln or EUR 78 mln

Of course, some are frankly embarrasing - check out Guinea Bissau (one of the poorest countries on the planet) - and see aid of - ooh - all of 120k. Shame on the UK. My company has invested many many times that there (albeit commercially - but at least I know the numbers being personally involved).

[James_D]

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=9052096

In norweagen... but you can read the numbers provided. I would have prefered the Odin.dep.no (goverment site for budgets... but I get invalid DNS record, because of my faulty hungarian line.


Norway:
This is the 2001 aidbudget, on 2.1 Bill. Kroner---- divide by 7 and you have the Euro's. 800 mill or aprox 100 mill euro goes to Afrika.
In addition we have debt consolidations. Wich are around the equal sum.
Eu: I'll check....



James..

[Joel]

Christiane Berthiaume, spokeswoman for the World Food Program, said the European Union usually gives about $170 million a year for food, the second-highest amount after the United States' $760 million.

US assistance of $225 million in 2000 accounted for nearly half of the total overseas development funding to fight the disease.

Joel

[Dogbert]

Originally posted by GNEP
http://www.dfid.gov.uk/SID/Main/index.asp

- for the UK.
As an example, 2000/2001 (most recent available): Mozambique - total UK public purse going to the country ~ GBP 45mln or EUR 78 mln

Of course, some are frankly embarrasing - check out Guinea Bissau (one of the poorest countries on the planet) - and see aid of - ooh - all of 120k. Shame on the UK. My company has invested many many times that there (albeit commercially - but at least I know the numbers being personally involved).

West Bank and Gaza: 9m

[GNEP]

Indeed we shouldn't forget the the US is also very nice

Just wondering though - are these "EU" figures in Dogbert's articles for everything coming out of the constituent countries in aid, or is it just the part that the EC has discretion over - ie do we need to add in the extra aid given by individual member countries?

Oh, the paucity of numbers...

[Dogbert]

"Arafat Bombs, Europe Pays" was the headline of the German newspaper Die Zeit on June 7. The newspaper's special investigation into EU funding revealed that at least 4.1 billion Euros have flowed from the EU to the PA since the autumn of 1993, in addition to hundreds of millions of Euros in grants contributed by individual European countries. When the Israelis stopped transferring the PA's share of revenues from import duties after realizing where the money was going, the EU stepped in to replace those funds. Each month since June 2001, 10 million Euros have been paid directly to Arafat.

[James_D]

Norweagen contribution to Palastine in 2001 was 300mill NOK.
and to Jugoslavia(Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro) 376 Mill Nok.

And the Norway was in charge for the money collection to Palastine, so if the money really has gone to his own pocket in Switzerland... then screw him... Sorry for profound language, but I don`t like paying tax to a pay his salary...



James

[The PIT]

Sad world really isn't it. Heres some money for your people to buy food and help you build your economy. Thanks Pal and I'll go and make some bombs and keep my people poor so I can keep on asking.
I suppose investigating and stopping the aid is political sucide as the dogooders would rip anyone to bits. So no one does anything.

[KeiFront]

Dogbert a little summary of the Military and Economic Aid that Israel receives:

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

[R.Carter]

It isn't like Israel doesn't get any foreign aid from Western sources. Last I heard Israel routinely gets about $2.9bn a year in grants and aid from the U.S. each year (from BBC).

The second Palestinian intifada has caused the Israeli economy to suffer and forced Israel to recently ask the U.S. for emergency aid. Israel wants an additional $4bn in military aid and $10bn in loan guarantees.

The second Palestinian uprising was essentially triggered by Ariel Sharon's visit in 2000 to the al-Aqsa mosque, wasn't it? The more cynical might think that he intentionally provoked the Palestinians.

The current intifida has hurt the Palestinians as well. It's also given Israel a reason to begin the reoccupation of Palestinian towns and essentially destroyed the Palestinian economy (think unemployment is as high as 80% in some Palestinian areas). That along with the corruption of the PA has caused Arafat to start to lose support and has caused many Palestinians to support Hamas.

It'll be interesting to see how Arafat does in the upcoming January presidential elections.

According to that article in question, the monies are from taxes that Israel was supposed to collect and turned over to the PA. Israel didn't want to give it to the PA. So then some EU types stepped in and replaced the money. Is that right? Of course, there is no way to ensure that none of those monies given to the Palestinian Authority (PA) could go missing and potentially being used to support terrorist groups. Yes, it's rather sad and troubling. The allegations of the PA being corrupt are nothing new and not surprising.

But, are then are these missing monies any more troubling than a British U.N. official being shot by a Israeli solider or Israel targeting food aid destined for the Palestinian refugee camps?

I find it rather hypocritical for Israel to denounce Arafat as not being a man of peace and to use that stance to justify why Israel won't talk to him and wants to see him replaced. While it is inexcusable for Arafat to not try and do more to appease Israel when he had the chance, one simply has to remember just how the state of Israel was created. From what I’ve read, Israel was created after the British were forced to abandoned Palestine due to the activities of Jewish right-wing terrorist groups. How many of Israel's current political leaders were involved in those old Jewish right-wing terrorist groups?

Sadly, at this point I'm not sure how the current situation can be resolved given the current position of both sides on the issues. From looking at the recent Israeli peace proposal one has to wonder if Israel will ever accept a truly independent state of Palestine.

Eventually I think both sides will come to realize that if they want peace they are going to have to be flexible. Of course, the more cynical think that if the Israelis can manage to get rid of the Palestinian refugees or can increase the number of Israeli settlements and Israeli population in the Palestinian intended areas that will settle the issue.

Usually, you’ll have to try and investigate each position of an issue if you want to get an accurate idea of what is going on. And yes, there is a lot of propaganda and selective reporting on any given issue.

Without trust there can be no real peace. Trust is a gift that has to be given and of course at this point nobody trusts the other side. Of course, this pretty much means that unless some heavy external pressure is put on both sides. Sadly, I can't see an imposed peace plan working. You’ll have international peacekeeping forces in the region for decades and unless both sides really want peace it’ll be pointless.

Yeah… I guess I’m rather jaded. Oh well… Happy Holidays everyone…