Congratulations to the 10 new EU members

[Schorsch]

Originally posted by Umfriend
Turkey would take them all back if the immigrants were wiling to re-imigrate. In some cases this happens. Joining the EU might help making Turkey a wealthier place so that less ppl would want to leave now. I do not know and wonder how many turks currently would like to emigrate btw, I do not think it is that much.

I think it is a major mistake to treat Turkey as we currently do. Also, joining the EU is not the same as joining the EMU, so the economic differences are less relevant. Check Turkey against the lesser of the economies, and then realise that they have had substantial benefit from the EU already...
Umf

Of course Turkey would profit from becoming a EU member but it would be very expensive for the rest of the EU even if Turkey wouldn't be joining the EMU. For example, in the current situation Turkey would receive more than 60 % of all agricultural subsidies in the EU. And don't forget that every EU citizen has got the right to live and work in any EU country. With an unemployment rate of about 30 % and wages much lower than in the rest of Europe, I suppose there would a lot more emigrants from Turkey than we have seen so far.
That said, in principle I am not against accepting Turkey as an EU member but I don't think the country is ready for it at this stage...

[KvHagedorn]

The West does not necessarily "hate" Islam. It is most definitely the other way around. We are not allowed to live in Saudi Arabia, and living in Turkey would be dangerous for a Westerner, yet they have been allowed to live in Europe. And they have taken advantage of the original agreement. In case you forget, the Turks were allowed into Germany as "guest workers" after WW2. The arrangement was meant to be quite temporary and beneficial to both parties.. they get to come to the West, make a tidy living for a time, then they get a "golden handshake" and go back home, with enough money to start their own businesses. Well they didn't go back home, for the most part. Why? They "didn't want to." Big surprise there. A strong government would have said "sorry, bud, but you have to go now", but the government by that time was infested with feminized weaklings who just couldn't say no. How would you feel, personally, if you invited someone into your home as a guest for a period of time and that person took advantage of your kindness, raided your refrigerator, knocked up your daughters with their kids, forced you to work harder to support them, and then your wife insisted that it would be unkind to ask them to leave. Can you understand when it is reduced to this microcosm? Watch Boudu sauvé des eaux or the American remake Down and Out in Beverly Hills for a dramatization...

There was a time when Turkish and Arab customs were an interesting and exotic thing.. Europeans would take their money and go there as tourists. There was no hatred for Islam. But now that they have become unwanted guests, people are not as interested in their culture anymore.. it is seen as a menacing danger to their own. And even if a European had to travel to Egypt or Istanbul to experience the culture which has now elbowed its way into his very home, it would be unsafe, because nuts like OBL have rallied their people to hate us, and it would be more dangerous for us to go there now.

Just please don't use words like "hate" so lightly. People do not like to be bullied with such words when they see themselves as defending their homes and families.

[Umfriend]

Sorry, I never meant to say that I thought the west (or anyone specific) hates Islam. I was trying to point out that this could re-inforce an exisiting prejudice on the side of many Muslims about the way the west views Islam.
Umf

[KvHagedorn]

Well, as long as Israel exists, I think most Muslims will blame us and think we are bastards. If they stopped, then someone would rouse them to start again.. somehow I think that will always be the central issue for them.

[thop]

Not as long Israel exists, KvH, but as long as Palestina does NOT exist.
Besides, i don't want Turkey in the EU so fast (starting negotiations 2005 sounds like a fair choice to me). They've got some work do to first. Because as i see it now the EU will be only giving to them, i don't see them much giving back.

[KvHagedorn]

I doubt that they can completely change their ways, solve their internal problems, and become as economically viable as Western European countries in 3 years.

[Schorsch]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn
There was a time when Turkish and Arab customs were an interesting and exotic thing.. Europeans would take their money and go there as tourists. There was no hatred for Islam. But now that they have become unwanted guests, people are not as interested in their culture anymore.. it is seen as a menacing danger to their own. And even if a European had to travel to Egypt or Istanbul to experience the culture which has now elbowed its way into his very home, it would be unsafe, because nuts like OBL have rallied their people to hate us, and it would be more dangerous for us to go there now.

That sounds as if visiting Turkey was something dangerous - in fact, last year almost 3 million German tourists spent their holidays in Turkey. I've never been there, but I know a lot of people who enjoyed their stay in Turkey very much and had nothing but praise for the hospitality of the Turkish people. It is a mistake to believe that we are "unwanted guests" there. Quite a few people in Turkey earn their living with tourism and they certainly don't give a damn what OBL wants them to believe...

[GNEP]

Ditto to Schorsch.

I have spent some time in Turkey, and found it to be one of the friendliest places I have been to. Far friendlier than London, that's for sure.

Gnep

[Novdid]

Originally posted by thop
Besides, i don't want Turkey in the EU so fast (starting negotiations 2005 sounds like a fair choice to me). They've got some work do to first. Because as i see it now the EU will be only giving to them, i don't see them much giving back.

Couldn't agree more, Turkey has a long way to go before they can even barely qualify. I don't see them becoming a part of EU this decade. The country would become a very heavy burden for the other members if they were to enter the union today.

[Novdid]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn
I doubt that they can completely change their ways, solve their internal problems, and become as economically viable as Western European countries in 3 years.

It's supposed to be the date they start negotiations. The new members entering now have been negotiating with the EU for many years.

[KvHagedorn]

Sorry if my impressions of Turkey's safety were wrong. Whenever you hear about any Westerner going to Turkey, though, it seems to be that they experienced some sort of hell like the guy in Midnight Express. You always hear about drug cartels and organized crime and Keyser Sose and such being from Turkey.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't want to get thrown in jail there..

[K6-III]

Serious punishment has a historical benefit of deterring crime.....

[The PIT]

Remember Good news is no news. So a load of tourists coming back from Turkey with happy smiley faces ain't going to sell many papers. However one Tourist filled by bullet holes sells loads of papers so thats why you hear the negatives.

[GNEP]

Yeah - and (dare I say this? ) I felt much more at ease in Turkey than in Greece. And Greece is even in the Euro zone now!!!

[MJA]

Let's be honest here - if you list all the reasons why it would be financially harmful to the EU for Turkey to join you'll notice that at least half of them apply to France as well