revolt against the Patriot Act?

[Dr Mordrid]

Treason has a specific definition in the Constitution and requires TWO witnesses. As such it's very infrequently used.

As noted in my edit of a previous post the definition came about under an order in 1942 by then President Roosevelt, which set up the "enemy combatant" classification.

In 1942 several nazi's were captured while trying to infiltrate into Florida to commit sabotage, including one American citizen. They were caught and held under the procedures set up by Pres. Roosevelt.

This was appealed and eventually came befrore the US Supreme Court, which ruled in 317 U.S. 1 (1942) EX PARTE QUIRIN that the President had the authority to make such a classification and that they did not have the right to file Habeas Corpus briefs.

As such it set the precident that not only did not foreign born persons acting against the US as part of an underground operation qualify as "enemy combatants" but that the American citizen was also qualified for the classification. This precedent has been further upheld in subsequent rulings.

Now...this all was under a "declaration of war" issued by act of Congress after Pearl Harbor, and some think that the absense of such a "declaration of war" makes a difference in this case.

This is not true because Congress in 1973 passed The War Powers Act.

The War Powers Act substitutes a War Powers Declaration for the old "declaration of war" procedure and includes some safeguards. These include a time-limit on the Presidents power to excute emergency military action without Congress passing such a resolution (60 days) and the ability for Congress to recind the resolution once passed.

In point of fact TWO War Powers Resolutions have been passed and remain in full effect since 9/11: one deals with al Qaeda, its minions and supporters be they individuals, organizations or nations and the other deals with the upcoming military action in Iraq.

BOTH have the full force of a formal declaration of war and both have been passed by large marins in Congress. They also enjoy high levels of support among the US citizenry.

Dr. Mordrid

[GT98]

Originally posted by RedRed

Yes, GT & Joel, I am a 'johnny foreigner'.... you guys feel rightly proud of your country, and your constitution, however you dont seem to notice or care when those rights and liberties are being stripped away... and they are being stripped away.

BTW, GT do you have ANY idea how many Japannese died in internment camps in the US?

RedRed

I dont have any problems with your posting at all, what I was trying to bring up that Facts themselfs are often tainted by views of the reporting medium that they come from (most US News networks are liberal) and thus all the "facts" may or may not be there.

In my posting about the interment camps...I brought that up since at the time (though wrong by todays thinking...which may or may not be "right") there was no outcry by the people since they thought it was "nessary", which is debatable.

[goldstein]

Originally posted by Joel
And have you notice too that it is mainly the foreigns who don't even live in the US who are always jumping on the band wagon about these things in these forums. I think they are just trying to stir up some shit here on the forums. Of course we know that RedRed has this obcession with Doc lately. Just look at his "one in the eye" thread where it is very obvious that he is trying to pick a fight with Doc.

Joel

I don't mean to stirring anything up Joel, but can you answer this - seriously, why is it so darned easy to press Americans' buttons?

You'd think that being number One in so many things, the responses (from many US Murcers) here would be a bit less defensive. But quite the opposite - so explain to me why is it so easy to irritate Americans?

If I was Numero Uno at so much I'd just be happy all the time and dismiss potshots/button pressing with ease. Like an elephant to a flea - I just do not understand the over-sensitivity.

[mdhome]

Sorry if im a little late in on this one but when I read RR posts I didnt believe that he was taking a dig at the US. If its anything like mine, it will be out of concern.

Regards MD

[Jammrock]

Originally posted by goldstein
I don't mean to stirring anything up Joel, but can you answer this - seriously, why is it so darned easy to press Americans' buttons?

You'd think that being number One in so many things, the responses (from many US Murcers) here would be a bit less defensive. But quite the opposite - so explain to me why is it so easy to irritate Americans?

If I was Numero Uno at so much I'd just be happy all the time and dismiss potshots/button pressing with ease. Like an elephant to a flea - I just do not understand the over-sensitivity.

Because there are several European MURCers that do their best to start flame wars with US MURCers. MURC has been having US vs Europe flamewars for several years now.

The main cause is the basic differences in lifestyle and ideology. The US has a capitalistic 'keep-up-with-me-or-get-out-of-my-way' ideology, whereas *most* Europeans have a more socialist, liberal ideal's that are considered extreme leftist here, which is very unpopular. When a leftist from Europe attacks the US ideals, you get clashes like this one.

On the flip side, when US MURCers taunt European and/or socialist ideals, the European MURCers often react the same way as US MURCers. Joel and Doc are paticularly active in teh US political scene, as RedRed and Thop are active in their respective European political scene. Thus when said parties get together...well, you see.

Jammrock

[RedRed]

Thaks MD...

It IS partly out of a general concern for the american people, but it is wider again than that.

This post was in no way intended to be a dig at any person, and indeed, if it is taken so, I do,sincerely, appologise.

While the post i meant to stimulate thaught and express concern at what appears to be a reflexive and poorly considered bill, and its possible conseqhences for the american people, its wider concern is about concerns of a move twords a more aggressive posture towords anyone who feels anything negative twords the the organ that is the american government, either inside or outside the the USA.

This can only be a bad thing. Even the perception of this can only be a bad thing, if not a reality.

It would be a necessary step twords Pax America

RedRed

[RedRed]

Hey Jamrock

You said it well....

Its not a real flame war though.... I dont take offense with Doc M's postings, and I take it he dosent with mine....

It is just a bit of fun - we are very different - but neither is right, neither is wrong.

[Jammrock]

I have lived in Europe before and my mother is Norwegian, so I do know a lot about Europe, at least Scandinavia. This is why I usually don't get involved in these types of debates, because the mentalities are so different it would be a bloody miracle if any one side got the other to understand or agree.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

As for this debate, the US has a long history of doing 'whatever it takes' to get the job done. In this case we are trying to rid ourselves of people who like flying jumbo jets into our skyscraper and kill several thousand people in the process. Until all groups like al Queda are gone, I don't see the US caring too much about the Patriot Act...unless people start abusing it. Then the people will get pissed.

Jammrock

[Ajax]

Originally posted by Jammrock

As for this debate, the US has a long history of doing 'whatever it takes' to get the job done. In this case we are trying to rid ourselves of people who like flying jumbo jets into our skyscraper and kill several thousand people in the process. Until all groups like al Queda are gone, I don't see the US caring too much about the Patriot Act...unless people start abusing it. Then the people will get pissed.

Jammrock

IMO One of the things that makes any Democracy great, is it's flexibility. If one side pulls too far to the left or right, the people let their elected officials know that their jobs are hanging by a thread, and things usually balancing out somewhere close to the center.

[MJA]

My two pennies (not cents!!! ) worth on this is this:

It's very easy for Governments to impliement strong laws which infringe on basic freedoms on the back of an attack against the state - obviously the public sympathy 'at home' is overwhelming.

But to the outside world, who can be more dispassionate about it, sometimes the scope for abuse of the law is a little more obvious.

Really - this thread is just another example of it.

[cjolley]

Being John Poindexter

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/TechTV/techtv_trackPoindexter021223.html

[mdhome]

Re: Being John Poindexter

Originally posted by cjolley
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scite...ter021223.html

How does the freedom of liberty compete with the free to persecute. We have a situation in the UK where the press seem to have no real controls on what they do (excepting the courts). They are at liberty, rightly or wrongly to ruin someones life. Their answer is, and as always been, "freedom of the press". While there is truth in this and on the large they do a good service, what they really mean is we want to protect our interests to make a quick profit. Is Poindexter now a victim?

Regards MD

[Dr Mordrid]

The problem seems to be that Poindexter was tasked to propose a methodology for gathering information. He did and now he's being persecuted for it.

The crap about him being "convicted" of a "crime" during the arms for hostages deal in the 80's is just that: crap. It was overturned on appeal because the prosecution wasn't as advertised: it was a persecution, brought on by Democratic prosecutors egged on by a Democratic Congress that was so hot to get something...anything...on Reagan they'd even convict the innocent to do it.

The same thing happeed to several other Reagan officials and the same thing happened to their "convictions" once the appellate courts got hold of the "evidence".

'twas a great example of LIBERAL "McCarthyism".

Dr. Mordrid

[Joel]

It IS partly out of a general concern for the american people, but it is wider again than that.

It's very easy for Governments to impliement strong laws which infringe on basic freedoms on the back of an attack against the state - obviously the public sympathy 'at home' is overwhelming.

But to the outside world, who can be more dispassionate about it, sometimes the scope for abuse of the law is a little more obvious.

Thank you for your concern but I think we are perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves. We are not as naive and stupid as you try to make us sound. We know our Constitutional rights and we probably have a better understanding of what the Patriot Act is all about that what you have learned through the liberal bias media.

As for you goldstien, we are just tried of being kicked in the nuts everytime we turn around no matter what we do. Yeah we are number one and damn proud of it but we are also just damn tried.

Joel

[Guru]

It's X-mas for ****s sake stop it already!