Mosque raid doesn't go down well with some Muslims

[Dr Mordrid]

Still there is the matter of the so called "moderate" muslims, both secular and religious, not criticising those doing violence in the name of Islam.

Talking the talk on TV in non-muslim countries is one thing, but now they MUST walk the walk in the national media in their own countries.

Until they do this their credibility, and that of their religion, stays where it is now: in the toilet.

Dr. Mordrid

[Slougi]

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
Still there is the matter of the so called "moderate" muslims, both secular and religious, not criticising those doing violence in the name of Islam.

And what do you know about muslims in general? What you see on TV? What you hear on the net? I assure you, most muslims do critise these attacks, very much so.

Talking the talk on TV in non-muslim countries is one thing, but now they MUST walk the walk in the national media in their own countries.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here, sorry. Could you put it in simpler terms? Particularly the "walk the walk" part, which I do not get at all.

Until they do this their credibility, and that of their religion, stays where it is now: in the toilet.

Dr. Mordrid

Islam's credibility is in the toilet? Tell that to the ~1 billion muslims in the world today.

[Jammrock]

I hear the sound of a Master lock coming...

I actually know and have worked with a lot of muslim/arab/islamic people. Many were refugees from their own countries. Some for reasons as little as, "I questioned the teachings of my cleric." Some to recieve education and get out of the violent areas.

One in particular is one of the nicest men I know. I worked with hime for 2-years. We set aside a place in a lab for him to pray. He had no harsh words toward any person but the bank that wouldn't give a loan for a house in CA. And he was only mildly upset at that.

On the other hand, I have met very radical muslims. They scare the crap out of me.

There is a saying, "The most dangerous man is he who does not fear death." When someone's overzealousness for religion takes away ones fear for death, and then turns them into a blind madman...you get 9||. With something like that catastrophic, all it takes is the act of a few to cause pain for the masses.

To those muslims I know, and muslims that honestly have no ill-intent, I feel for you. I hope you escape the madness.

As for the bastards responsible for 9||, the suicide bombings in Isreal and around the world and the murder of civilians...I hope your god has pity on you, because there's no one left on Earth who will pity you.

Jammrock

[The PIT]

Moderate Muslims are like most moderates they get drowned out or preasured out by the radicals.
I've seen moderate Muslims on TV asking the Police to act. Nothing happens and they get dishearted or the Police act and then you get the dogooders and radicals jumping up and down instead.
Tv and Newspapers find this more interesting as it sells more papers and gets more viewers.
Theres an estimated 100 - 1000 extremists residing in the UK excluding other extremist groups from other religons and polictical groups.

[The PIT]

Originally posted by Jammrock
I hear the sound of a Master lock coming...
Jammrock

Mmmm thinking about deleting the thread.

[GNEP]

I do wonder how long this will last...

But (a) notice how I say "prejudiced" not "racist". Probably outright discriminatory is closer to the truth.

and (b) The PIT and Sloughi are right in my own (limited) experience. Moderates from all sides are in the majority but get very little coverage in the press. All muslims I know personally condemn terrorism in all its forms. As do I.

Gnep

[Slougi]

About locking/deleting, if we all play nice I don't see why it should be locked/deleted. At least I don't intend to flame anyone, but there are some people whom I can see having problems with that...

The PIT and Sloughi are right in my own (limited) experience. Moderates from all sides are in the majority but get very little coverage in the press.

Which was what I meant by my TV comment above. It is unfortunate that all the media coverage is about the radical muslims, and mostly ignores other points of view. BTW, it is Slougi, not Sloughi

Moderate Muslims are like most moderates they get drowned out or preasured out by the radicals.

This is true to some extent, but history suggests that sooner or later the radicals loose out to the moderates.

As far as I go, the people responsible for the attacks on 9.11. should rot in hell for what they did. It was, and is, inexcusable, and goes against all teachings of Islam. Violence leads to more violence; it's a vicious circle, and the current problems won't be solved that way. Instead of using resources to train people for such suicide missions, money should be used to build up countries so they can get a political foothold, and have the respect of other nations. That way, people in the middle east and elsewhere would be more educated, and generally educated people tend to be more moderate and open-minded compared to others less educated. That way hopefully a solution could be found to unfortunate situations like in Israel/Palestine.

[The PIT]

Unfortunatley in Britain the tendacy is for the communities to become more isolated. The places where I go at night you see the older generation and never the younger generation. The younger generation seem more interested in running round in gangs.

[Strahd]

Originally posted by Jammrock
They already had weapons in there, a few more wouldn't hurt.

Which is basically what I said.

But then given the illegal documents, stun gun etc, gas cannister etc that were found, why should they care if police brought weapons in.

[The PIT]

Slougi not being nasty but perhaps you ought to start a group up that shows that they are Muslims against this behavour. At the moment it's a whisper in a crowded room missed by many.

[The PIT]

By the way to say attacking a religon and calling the person attacking the religon a racist is also wrong. This presumes that belonging to a religon means you are of one race.
The last time I checked anyone can be a Muslim be they Black, White, Yellow or Green from mars. This also applies to Christians and no doubt other religons.

[Strahd]

Originally posted by The PIT
Slougi not being nasty but perhaps you ought to start a group up that shows that they are Muslims against this behavour. At the moment it's a whisper in a crowded room missed by many.

I don't think it would be that uncommon. I live in a province that is prodominently French. Probably 75%. Maybe a little less. The provincial government is always campaigning to seperate from the rest of Canada. This doesn't mean that every french person is in favor of separation.

Originally posted by The PIT By the way to say attacking a religon and calling the person attacking the religon a racist is also wrong.

That's basically a play on words. Racist, sexist, hatred towards a specific religion, hatred towards a particular country etc. Any form of bigotry is just that. Bigotry.

[Slougi]

Originally posted by The PIT
Slougi not being nasty but perhaps you ought to start a group up that shows that they are Muslims against this behavour. At the moment it's a whisper in a crowded room missed by many.

I have actually thought of it at some points myself. However, here in Finland there are not a whole lot of muslims. I plan to go to University in Germany (was born there), where such a group might be feasible. I might create a site/forum though, but haven't really looked into that yet.

By the way to say attacking a religon and calling the person attacking the religon a racist is also wrong. This presumes that belonging to a religon means you are of one race.
The last time I checked anyone can be a Muslim be they Black, White, Yellow or Green from mars. This also applies to Christians and no doubt other religons.

True, I realized that after I posted, but couldn't think of a better word. Anyway, my point still stands

[Gurm]

Look, I'll back off a bit.

Not EVERY Muslim wants Americans dead.

The 7-11 owner down the street? I dunno. He's a little weird.

Slougi? Obviously not.

Let's say that MUSLIMS, in general, as a group, want Americans dead. You may disagree, because you are moderate.

But CHRISTIANS, as a group, want abortion to be illegal... and don't do anywhere NEAR enough standing up and saying that people that shoot abortion doctors are wrong. I find that ALMOST as reprehensible as Muslims not standing up and saying that terrorism is wrong.

I'm sure you're a nice guy, Slougi. I'm sure there are other Muslims out there that are also nice (I've met a few). The problem is that the moderates AREN'T winning against the radicals. In Saudi Arabia, the royal family (fairly moderate) is currently living in perpetual fear of an uprising by the radical muftis, and has done exactly NOTHING to quell such a thing. SA is getting more and more radical as a country by the day - and they are our biggest ALLY in the area.

You can say over and over that the TRUE meaning of Islam is NOT to kill all the infidels. But since there are no prominent muftis or clerics getting up and saying so... it's empty rhetoric.

Actions speak louder than words. Catholics everywhere refuse to simply "forgive" the church hierarchy for systematically aiding and abetting the abuse of small children. It would NOT seem that Muslims everywhere are particularly upset with their "church hierarchy" insisting on blowing up Westerners.

- Gurm

[Slougi]

The 7-11 owner down the street? I dunno. He's a little weird.

So someone being a little weird is enough to make you suspicious? My math teacher is a little weird, he might blow up the school. So is my chemistry teacher actually. Maybe it's a conspiracy! I quote this to show where the bias lies.

Again, I question your sources. Where do you get this info? Have you ever lived in some arabic/islamic country? Just because radicals get all the media coverage, it does not mean that they are "winning". Most people in the middle east are sick of war by now, and are praying for peace, not flying airplains into buildings or blowing up busses.
I have lived in arab countries, most recently in Lebanon, and I have witnessed first hand that most arabs do _not_ want all Americans dead. This is especially true for Lebanon, which is a very international country, with many people who have lived abroad and/or have one parent from somewhere else. I haven't lived in Saudi Arabia, but I do have a few relatives there. They do not want you dead either. Same goes for Jordan and Quwait.

Offtopic
The USA, however, is doing much to shoot itself in the foot. The whole Iraq affair is not helping things one bit. Afghanistan I could understand, in a weird and twisted way. However Bush seems overly obsessed with attacking Iraq, even after they let the arms inpectors in the country. As it is, the US could achieve a lot by political means. If they attack Iraq, this might change.