Rice Editorial on Iraq

[Brian R.]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/23/opinion/23RICE.html

[KvHagedorn]

bah.. I don't want to sign up for free spam. If you want to give us the gist of the thing here, feel free to do so.

[Gurm]

KvH:

Dunno what you're talking about. Article comes up fine here.

- Gurm

[thop]

Is stark an official word of the English Vocabulary now? I get surprised every day.

[Pace]

Link works here too, no registration required.

<strong>Why We Know Iraq Is Lying</strong>
Eleven weeks after the United Nations Security Council unanimously passed a resolution demanding — yet again — that Iraq disclose and disarm all its nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs, it is appropriate to ask, "Has Saddam Hussein finally decided to voluntarily disarm?" Unfortunately, the answer is a clear and resounding no.

Last week's finding by inspectors of 12 chemical warheads not included in Iraq's declaration was particularly troubling. In the past, Iraq has filled this type of warhead with sarin — a deadly nerve agent used by Japanese terrorists in 1995 to kill 12 Tokyo subway passengers and sicken thousands of others. Richard Butler, the former chief United Nations arms inspector, estimates that if a larger type of warhead that Iraq has made and used in the past were filled with VX (an even deadlier nerve agent) and launched at a major city, it could kill up to one million people. Iraq has also failed to provide United Nations inspectors with documentation of its claim to have destroyed its VX stockpiles.

So, they've found small warheads, and made the supposition, "If they made bigger ones of these and filled them with stuff they've used in the past they could kill 1 million people". Now, there doesn't seem to be much of an argument there. Plus these warheads were reported to have a range of 20 miles...now, what threat does that pose? It will maybe reach the outskirts of Baghdad Especially when you consider that we could launch missiles from here with greater destructive damage to Baghdad. I feel that the more the west acts like the world police, the more everyone else will unite against us.

P.

[Technoid]

I can't reach the link, they really want to spam me

[R.Carter]

Bascially, that article says we know Iraq is lying because... well they are acting like they are hiding something.

It contrasts current Irqai behaviour to that of South Arfica, Ukraine and Kazakhstan. Those countries asked for the IAEA to verify that they were disarming and getting rid of their nuclear weapons.

The whole point of the U.N. weapons inspectors is to determine if Iraq is lying about not having weapons of mass destruction. Given enough time and resources the weapons inspectors should be able to determine if Iraq is lying.

The U.N. weapons inspectors found and destroyed more weapons of mass destruction then were destroyed during the Gulf War I military campaign. The only reason the original inspectors were kicked out of Iraq in December 1998 was due to the CIA infiltrating the weapons inspection! See Spying on Saddam from PBS.

I think that the current publically available evidence is listed in the article Iraq: The disputed evidence.

I guess some people are a becoming a tad cynical and are starting to think that the U.S. simply used the U.N. to buy time to deploy their troops to the area. The U.S. justification that without the apparent threat of credible military force to back up the U.N. resolutions Iraq wouldn't comply allows the U.S. to deplay thousands of troops to the area without question.

Of course, I can't see that many troops just sitting around all summer getting bored while the world waits for the inspectors to stumble across a "smoking gun".

If someone was really cynical they might start asking who's after Iraq on the "Axis of Evil" hit list. Seeing as how Iran is next to Iraq and unlike North Korea Iran doesn't have nukes (yet!) it would seem to be a likely target. And after Iran there is always Cuba, Libya and Syria since the US expands 'axis of evil' list a while back to include those countries as well.

[thop]

Considering recent events the next countries on the Axis of Evil list might be France and Germany

[efty]

NYT is not spaming. U just need to register and opt out on any email they might want to sent you.

[Kooldino]

WHy, what happened with France and Germany? Or is there some joke i'm missing here...

[Gurm]

Originally posted by thop
Is stark an official word of the English Vocabulary now? I get surprised every day.

Yes. Has been all of my life, probably much longer.

- Gurm

[Schorsch]

Originally posted by Kooldino
WHy, what happened with France and Germany? Or is there some joke i'm missing here...

Taken from the CNN web site:

On Wednesday, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld dismissed the comments from France and Germany, saying most European countries stand with the United States in its campaign to force Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to disarm.

"Germany has been a problem, and France has been a problem," said Rumsfeld, a former NATO ambassador. "But you look at vast numbers of other countries in Europe. They're not with France and Germany on this; they're with the United States."

Germany and France represent "old Europe," Rumsfeld said, and NATO's expansion in recent years means "the center of gravity is shifting to the east."

Germany has a nonveto seat on the Security Council, but it is a key NATO ally and will hold the council's rotating presidency in February.

French officials reacted angrily Thursday to Rumsfeld's comments. An influential former labor minister says the statements show "a certain arrogance of the United States," and France's ecology minister used a regional expression for a four-letter word in reference to Rumsfeld, The Associated Press reported.

[Gurm]

Originally posted by Pace
So, they've found small warheads, and made the supposition, "If they made bigger ones of these and filled them with stuff they've used in the past they could kill 1 million people". Now, there doesn't seem to be much of an argument there. Plus these warheads were reported to have a range of 20 miles...now, what threat does that pose? It will maybe reach the outskirts of Baghdad Especially when you consider that we could launch missiles from here with greater destructive damage to Baghdad. I feel that the more the west acts like the world police, the more everyone else will unite against us.

Two issues:

1. One of the warheads in question had traces of a chemical compound in it. They aren't saying WHICH chemical compound it is yet, but it doesn't look good.

2. These warheads weren't on the "list" provided by Iraq. That's REALLY troubling. The issue here is that if the inspectors, with minimal effort, on the first sweep, found 12 warheads with chemicals in 'em that weren't on the "list", what ELSE wasn't on the "list". Remember Iraq claims to have destroyed EVERY SINGLE LAST WEAPON of mass destruction or biological warfare.

3. It is NOT unusual, nor us "not minding our own business" to insist that countries such as Iraq dismantle their illegal weapons production. We (we = United Nations) have done so before, and will do so again.

Originally posted by R.Carter
Bascially, that article says we know Iraq is lying because... well they are acting like they are hiding something.

No. See my point above. We know Iraq is lying because they have already lied... and been caught in it. The 12 warheads and trace amounts of chemical weaponry are already a HUGE lie, since they claimed to have destroyed all of that. Now we are forced to ask "how big is the lie?" and "how much MORE stuff do they have?"

It contrasts current Irqai behaviour to that of South Arfica, Ukraine and Kazakhstan. Those countries asked for the IAEA to verify that they were disarming and getting rid of their nuclear weapons.

Yes, they did. If Iraq were serious about disarming, they would also have asked. The fact that we have been forced to threaten war to get them to agree to inspections is pretty solid proof of their wrongdoing.

The whole point of the U.N. weapons inspectors is to determine if Iraq is lying about not having weapons of mass destruction. Given enough time and resources the weapons inspectors should be able to determine if Iraq is lying.

THEY ALREADY HAVE. Which part of the warheads and chemicals that weren't on the list turning up did you misunderstand? The minute we find weaponry that is both forbidden and NOT on the list... they are liars, and we have our proof.

The U.N. weapons inspectors found and destroyed more weapons of mass destruction then were destroyed during the Gulf War I military campaign. The only reason the original inspectors were kicked out of Iraq in December 1998 was due to the CIA infiltrating the weapons inspection! See Spying on Saddam from PBS.

Here's a quote from that article, just to put your misunderstanding of the situation into perspective!

it fell short in getting all of Hussein's deadly arsenal. And, in December 1998, Iraq expelled all UNSCOM weapons inspectors charging that UNSCOM has become a spy agency.

He's charging that again. I wonder... every time we get close to the big arsenal of nasty hidden stuff, he says we're spies and kicks us out... nice strategy.

I think that the current publically available evidence is listed in the article Iraq: The disputed evidence.

Yep. Which part of that article being VERY troubling has eluded you? Add to that the fact that Iraq has been caught, recently, trying to import weapons-grade and refinable Uranium - and that they located documents (which a scientist was trying to hide when they found them) detailing a program to enrich said Uranium... despite clear prohibitions against Iraq even having ANY Uranium...

I guess some people are a becoming a tad cynical and are starting to think that the U.S. simply used the U.N. to buy time to deploy their troops to the area. The U.S. justification that without the apparent threat of credible military force to back up the U.N. resolutions Iraq wouldn't comply allows the U.S. to deplay thousands of troops to the area without question.

Yup. It was only after Bush started deploying warships and troops that Iraq even agreed to let the inspectors back in. For YEARS they have been refusing to allow the inspectors in. We make a show of force, they let 'em in. If we don't continue to show force, they'll expel these inspectors just like they did the last set.

Of course, I can't see that many troops just sitting around all summer getting bored while the world waits for the inspectors to stumble across a "smoking gun".

I can. Our troops have been dispatched to long-ass really boring "campouts" before. They'll do their best, and "sit" as ordered.

If someone was really cynical they might start asking who's after Iraq on the "Axis of Evil" hit list. Seeing as how Iran is next to Iraq and unlike North Korea Iran doesn't have nukes (yet!) it would seem to be a likely target. And after Iran there is always Cuba, Libya and Syria since the US expands 'axis of evil' list a while back to include those countries as well.

Well that really depends. Which country will fund terrorism, harbor terrorists, and develop an illegal nuclear program next? North Korea is already on our shitlist, and they're digging their hole deeper every day.

- Gurm

[Brian R.]

Here is the text of the article for those with access problems.

Why We Know Iraq Is Lying
By CONDOLEEZZA RICE


WASHINGTON
Eleven weeks after the United Nations Security Council unanimously passed a resolution demanding — yet again — that Iraq disclose and disarm all its nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs, it is appropriate to ask, "Has Saddam Hussein finally decided to voluntarily disarm?" Unfortunately, the answer is a clear and resounding no.

There is no mystery to voluntary disarmament. Countries that decide to disarm lead inspectors to weapons and production sites, answer questions before they are asked, state publicly and often the intention to disarm and urge their citizens to cooperate. The world knows from examples set by South Africa, Ukraine and Kazakhstan what it looks like when a government decides that it will cooperatively give up its weapons of mass destruction. The critical common elements of these efforts include a high-level political commitment to disarm, national initiatives to dismantle weapons programs, and full cooperation and transparency.

In 1989 South Africa made the strategic decision to dismantle its covert nuclear weapons program. It destroyed its arsenal of seven weapons and later submitted to rigorous verification by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Inspectors were given complete access to all nuclear facilities (operating and defunct) and the people who worked there. They were also presented with thousands of documents detailing, for example, the daily operation of uranium enrichment facilities as well as the construction and dismantling of specific weapons.

Ukraine and Kazakhstan demonstrated a similar pattern of cooperation when they decided to rid themselves of the nuclear weapons, intercontinental ballistic missiles and heavy bombers inherited from the Soviet Union. With significant assistance from the United States — warmly accepted by both countries — disarmament was orderly, open and fast. Nuclear warheads were returned to Russia. Missile silos and heavy bombers were destroyed or dismantled — once in a ceremony attended by the American and Russian defense chiefs. In one instance, Kazakhstan revealed the existence of a ton of highly enriched uranium and asked the United States to remove it, lest it fall into the wrong hands.

Iraq's behavior could not offer a starker contrast. Instead of a commitment to disarm, Iraq has a high-level political commitment to maintain and conceal its weapons, led by Saddam Hussein and his son Qusay, who controls the Special Security Organization, which runs Iraq's concealment activities. Instead of implementing national initiatives to disarm, Iraq maintains institutions whose sole purpose is to thwart the work of the inspectors. And instead of full cooperation and transparency, Iraq has filed a false declaration to the United Nations that amounts to a 12,200-page lie.

For example, the declaration fails to account for or explain Iraq's efforts to get uranium from abroad, its manufacture of specific fuel for ballistic missiles it claims not to have, and the gaps previously identified by the United Nations in Iraq's accounting for more than two tons of the raw materials needed to produce thousands of gallons of anthrax and other biological weapons.

Iraq's declaration even resorted to unabashed plagiarism, with lengthy passages of United Nations reports copied word-for-word (or edited to remove any criticism of Iraq) and presented as original text. Far from informing, the declaration is intended to cloud and confuse the true picture of Iraq's arsenal. It is a reflection of the regime's well-earned reputation for dishonesty and constitutes a material breach of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441, which set up the current inspections program.

Unlike other nations that have voluntarily disarmed — and in defiance of Resolution 1441 — Iraq is not allowing inspectors "immediate, unimpeded, unrestricted access" to facilities and people involved in its weapons program. As a recent inspection at the home of an Iraqi nuclear scientist demonstrated, and other sources confirm, material and documents are still being moved around in farcical shell games. The regime has blocked free and unrestricted use of aerial reconnaissance.

The list of people involved with weapons of mass destruction programs, which the United Nations required Iraq to provide, ends with those who worked in 1991 — even though the United Nations had previously established that the programs continued after that date. Interviews with scientists and weapons officials identified by inspectors have taken place only in the watchful presence of the regime's agents. Given the duplicitous record of the regime, its recent promises to do better can only be seen as an attempt to stall for time.

Last week's finding by inspectors of 12 chemical warheads not included in Iraq's declaration was particularly troubling. In the past, Iraq has filled this type of warhead with sarin — a deadly nerve agent used by Japanese terrorists in 1995 to kill 12 Tokyo subway passengers and sicken thousands of others. Richard Butler, the former chief United Nations arms inspector, estimates that if a larger type of warhead that Iraq has made and used in the past were filled with VX (an even deadlier nerve agent) and launched at a major city, it could kill up to one million people. Iraq has also failed to provide United Nations inspectors with documentation of its claim to have destroyed its VX stockpiles.

Many questions remain about Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and arsenal — and it is Iraq's obligation to provide answers. It is failing in spectacular fashion. By both its actions and its inactions, Iraq is proving not that it is a nation bent on disarmament, but that it is a nation with something to hide. Iraq is still treating inspections as a game. It should know that time is running out.


Condoleezza Rice is the national security adviser.

[GT98]

Originally posted by R.Carter
If someone was really cynical they might start asking who's after Iraq on the "Axis of Evil" hit list. Seeing as how Iran is next to Iraq and unlike North Korea Iran doesn't have nukes (yet!) it would seem to be a likely target. And after Iran there is always Cuba, Libya and Syria since the US expands 'axis of evil' list a while back to include those countries as well.

I think the Iranian Situation will take care of itself. The people are seeing that getting rid of the Shah and letting the Regilous radicals take over didnt do anything and was more of the same BS.

The North Korean Situation is bit more sticky...but I'm not sure what short of war is going to fix that problem