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  • Things look like they could get ugly for NASA

    Taken for what its worth:

    From yahoo.com

    NEW YORK (Reuters) - After an expert panel warned that its space shuttles were facing safety troubles if the agency's budget was not raised, NASA (news - web sites) removed five of the panel's nine members and two consultants in what some of them said was a move to suppress their criticism, The New York Times reported on Monday.

    The incident was recalled after the space shuttle Columbia broke up over Texas on Saturday, killing all seven astronauts aboard.

    Retired Adm. Bernard Kauderer, was so upset at the firings that he quit NASA's Aerospace Safety Advisory Panel, a group of experts charged with monitoring safety at the space agency, the newspaper said.

    NASA conceded the individuals were forced out, but told the Times it changed the charter of the group so that new members who were younger and more skilled could be added. "It had nothing to do with shooting the messenger," a NASA spokeswoman told the newspaper.

    NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe said he was surprised by the report and that each member of the panel head served out his full term.

    "There's no abnormality I'm aware of, but I'll certainly look into it and see if we can satisfy ourselves that there's no other intrusion involved," he told CNN.

    The panel's most recent report, which came out last March and included analyzes by the six departed members, warned that work on long-term shuttle safety "had deteriorated," the article said. Tight budgets, the panel report said, were forcing an emphasis on short-term planning and adding to a backlog of planned improvements.

    "I have never been as worried for space shuttle safety as I am right now," Dr. Richard D. Blomberg, the panel's chairman, told Congress in April. "All of my instincts suggest that the current approach is planting the seeds for future danger," the Times reported.

    His worry was "not for the present flight or the next or perhaps the one after that." He added, "One of the roots of my concern is that nobody will know for sure when the safety margin has been eroded too far," the newspaper said.

    Members of Congress who heard testimony from the panel last spring told the Times that they would re-examine whether budget constraints had undermined safety, but several said they doubted it.

    O'Keefe said Blomberg "was concerned about the future process at that time, of exactly what would be the upgrades as well as the safety modifications necessary. We took those ideas aboard."

    President Bush (news - web sites) will propose a nearly $470 million boost in NASA's budget for fiscal 2004, an administration official said on Sunday, promising investigators would look into whether past cutbacks played any part in the Columbia disaster.
    Why is it called tourist season, if we can't shoot at them?

  • #2
    And another

    And this report:

    Did environmentalism
    bring down Columbia?
    NASA probed exact same glitch
    of insulation striking tiles in 1997

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Posted: February 2, 2003
    5:00 p.m. Eastern


    By Joseph Farah
    © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com


    More than six years ago, NASA investigated extensive thermal tile damage on the space shuttle Columbia as a result of the shedding of external tank insulation on launch – now a prime suspect in the Columbia's disastrous disintegration upon re-entry yesterday.

    The problems began when the space agency switched to materials and parts that were considered more "environmentally friendly," according to a NASA report obtained by WorldNetDaily.


    Did concerns for environment cause shuttle disaster?

    NASA investigators have quickly focused on the possibility that Columbia's thermal tiles were damaged far more seriously than the space agency realized during liftoff. Just a little over a minute into Columbia's launch Jan. 16, a chunk of insulating foam peeled away from the external fuel tank and smashed into the left wing, which like the rest of the shuttle is covered with tiles to protect the ship from the extreme heat of re-entry into the atmosphere. Yesterday, that same wing started exhibiting sensor failures and other problems 23 minutes before Columbia was scheduled to touch down. With just 16 minutes to go before landing, the shuttle disintegrated over Texas killing all seven in the crew.

    In 1997, during the 87th space shuttle mission, similar tile damage was done during launch when the external tank foam crashed into them during the stress of takeoff. NASA knows that problem occurred again on this Columbia launch. However, the agency is not certain this was the cause of the disintegration of the craft upon re-entry.

    "Immediately after the Columbia rolled to a stop, the inspection crews began the process of the post-flight inspection," wrote NASA's Greg Katnik in a review of the problems of that 1997 flight. "As soon as the orbiter was approached, light spots in the tiles were observed indicating that there had been significant damage to the tiles. The tiles do a fantastic job of repelling heat, however they are very fragile and susceptible to impact damage. Damage numbering up to forty tiles is considered normal on each mission due to ice dropping off of the external tank (ET) and plume re-circulation causing this debris to impact with the tiles. But the extent of damage at the conclusion of this mission was not 'normal.'"

    The alarming report continued: "The pattern of hits did not follow aerodynamic expectations, and the number, size and severity of hits were abnormal. Three hundred and eight hits were counted during the inspection, one-hundred and thirty two (132) were greater than one inch. Some of the hits measured fifteen (15) inches long with depths measuring up to one and one-half (1 1/2) inches. Considering that the depth of the tile is two (2) inches, a 75% penetration depth had been reached. Over one hundred (100) tiles have been removed from the Columbia because they were irreparable. The inspection revealed the damage, now the 'detective process' began."

    NASA investigators seven years ago noted that the damage followed changes in the methods of "foaming" the external tank – changes mandated by concerns about being "environmentally friendly."

    "During the STS-87 mission, there was a change made on the external tank," said the report. "Because of NASA's goal to use environmentally friendly products, a new method of 'foaming' the external tank had been used for this mission and the STS-86 mission. It is suspected that large amounts of foam separated from the external tank and impacted the orbiter. This caused significant damage to the protective tiles of the orbiter."

    NASA's report on that earlier Columbia flight concluded on a positive note, suggesting changes would be made in procedures to avoid such problems at launches in the future.

    "As this investigation continues, I am very comfortable that the questions will be answered and the solutions applied," wrote Katnik. "In fact, some of the solutions are already in progress. At present the foam on the sides of the tank is being sanded down to the nominal minimum thickness. This removes the outer surface, which is tougher than the foam core, and lessens the amount of foam that can separate and hit the orbiter."

    This 6-year-old problem is sure to raise new concerns about NASA's safety procedures. Already, new public concern is focusing on a former NASA engineer who pleaded last summer for a presidential order to halt all further shuttle flights until safety issues had been addressed.

    In a letter to the White House, Don Nelson, who served with NASA for 36 years until he retired in 1999, wrote to President George W. Bush warning that his "intervention" was necessary to "prevent another catastrophic space shuttle accident."

    During his last 11 years at NASA, Nelson served as a mission operations evaluator for proposed advanced space transportation projects. He was on the initial design team for the space shuttle. He participated in every shuttle upgrade until his retirement.

    Listing a series of mishaps with shuttle missions since 1999, Nelson warned in his letter that NASA management and the Aerospace Safety Advisory Panel have failed to respond to the growing warning signs of another shuttle accident, reported the London Observer. Since 1999 the vehicle had experienced a number of potentially disastrous problems:


    1999 – Columbia's launch was delayed by a hydrogen leak and Discovery was grounded with damaged wiring, contaminated engine and dented fuel line;

    January 2000 – Endeavor was delayed because of wiring and computer failures;

    August 2000 – inspection of Columbia revealed 3,500 defects in wiring;

    October 2000 – the 100th flight of the shuttle was delayed because of a misplaced safety pin and concerns with the external tank;

    April 2002 – a hydrogen leak forced the cancellation of the Atlantis flight;

    July 2002 – the inspector general reported that the shuttle safety programme was not properly managed;

    August 2002 – the shuttle launch system was grounded after fuel line cracks were discovered. Yesterday, Nelson told the London Observer that he feared the Columbia disaster was the culmination of "disastrous mismanagement" by NASA's most senior officials and would inevitably lead to a moratorium on future flights.
    "I became concerned about safety issues in NASA after Challenger," he said. "I think what happened is that very slowly over the years NASA's culture of safety became eroded. But when I tried to raise my concerns with NASA's new administrator, I received two reprimands for not going through the proper channels, which discouraged other people from coming forward with their concerns. When it came to an argument between a middle-ranking engineer and the astronauts and administration, guess who won."

    I just hope they have someone with the leadership and vision to keep the Manned-program alive at Nasa.
    Why is it called tourist season, if we can't shoot at them?

    Comment


    • #3
      If you aren't already aware of how I feel about so-called "Enviro-mental-twits", let me enlighten you...

      No, you can probably guess.

      But I swear to GOD, next time I hear someone who THINKS they are an environmentalist saying how we should do shit that isn't nice or good or safe, I'm gonna ****ing throttle them.

      Not to mention the fact that perhaps 50+% of "environmental initiatives" are actually DETRIMENTAL to the environment.

      - Gurm
      The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

      I'm the least you could do
      If only life were as easy as you
      I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
      If only life were as easy as you
      I would still get screwed

      Comment


      • #4
        Those were good links, Scott.. thanks!

        They need to redesign that tank so that the insulation is on the inside. Actually, this should have been done long ago, apparently. There is no excuse for this sort of slipshod attitude.

        Comment


        • #5
          NASA has been suffering the Death of a Thousand Cuts for over 30 years.

          Safety is getting MBA’d away in little tiny bites at a time.
          So are Vision, Purpose, Science, and Leadership.

          If you want evidence that the US is in long term decline, look no further.
          chuck
          Chuck
          秋音的爸爸

          Comment


          • #6
            I have yet to find out the coposition of the piece of foam that hit the leading edge of the shuttle wing on take-off. If it is plastic foam with no metal or mineral content, I can't envision how it could be hard enough to damage the wing or tiles.

            Comment


            • #7
              As far as I know, it's styrofoam.
              Just going very fast and possibly coated with ice. (ouch)
              chuck
              Chuck
              秋音的爸爸

              Comment


              • #8
                Those that actually follow the space program were well aware that an accident was just waiting to happen.

                The best representation of what has happened to the space program since the 1970's is that of more than 30 launch gantries at Cape Canaveral, less than 5 are in operation. The hoses that carry liquid hydrogen and liquid oxigen are heavily cracked and leaking. The Vehicle Assembly Building, built in the early 1960's needs a new roof. The Crawlers that move the shuttle, again built in the 60's to mov e the Saturn V, are in a state of disrepair. NASA has no resorted to cannabalizing parts from different Crawlers to make some work...

                What is necessary is a return to capsules launched on expendable rockets.

                Cargo should be launched by a super-heavy lift booster along the capabilities of the SaturnV. I don't know that congress is willing to commit to something that may be perceived as a step backwards, however...
                Let us return to the moon, to stay!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by K6-III
                  ...I don't know that congress is willing to commit to something that may be perceived as a step backwards, however...
                  I can't tell that they are willing to commit to much of anything when it comes to space exploration.
                  chuck
                  Chuck
                  秋音的爸爸

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    They aren't. We went to the moon, and now it's "been there, done that". There's lots left to do on the moon but we haven't been ... since I was an infant.

                    - Gurm
                    The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

                    I'm the least you could do
                    If only life were as easy as you
                    I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
                    If only life were as easy as you
                    I would still get screwed

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thats NASA's biggest problem...lack of capturing the Publics attention with some gee wiz stuff and the lack of competition doesn't help either....arent the chinese looking to going to the moon before 2010?

                      Its an Ugly state of Affairs....
                      Why is it called tourist season, if we can't shoot at them?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Things are going even worst, it seems.

                        Nasa knew that the shuttle couldn't re-enter, and instead of sending a rescue to the shuttle they decided to sacrifice the astronauts.


                        Really ...
                        Sat on a pile of deads, I enjoy my oysters.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Drizzt
                          Things are going even worst, it seems.

                          Nasa knew that the shuttle couldn't re-enter, and instead of sending a rescue to the shuttle they decided to sacrifice the astronauts.


                          Really ...
                          source?
                          I doubt if there would have been a way to rescue them.
                          chuck
                          Chuck
                          秋音的爸爸

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cjolley
                            source?
                            I doubt if there would have been a way to rescue them.
                            chuck
                            Source? Simple, they had a movie clearly showing the cracked wing.
                            (so clearly that even my mother has seen it, and without the needing of further explanation).
                            Sat on a pile of deads, I enjoy my oysters.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              And, to be honest, it all seems really stupid to me.
                              Let's forget for a moment that they knew about the damage.

                              Nasa have declared that when the on board autopilot has detected a heat problem over the wing...IT HAS CHANGED THE ANGLE OF DESCEND!!!!
                              SHIT!
                              IT'S ****ING STUPID!


                              The right angle of descend is the only thing that really keep the Shuttle safe! You can have all the heat protection panels that you desire all around the shuttle for miles...BUT IT'S THE RIGHT ANGLE THAT KEEP THE SHUTTLE SAFE!


                              Even meteors "bounce" over our atmosphear when coming down with the wrong angle...


                              Really, this is really a stupid situation.
                              Sat on a pile of deads, I enjoy my oysters.

                              Comment

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