What will we do if Parhelia doesn't make the shelves?

[Tempest]

Well we have been hinted that Parhelia is NOT about embedded memory... What else did you have in mind?

[az]

The insane amounts of memory graphics cards nowadays carry would be near-impossible to mfg in edram... but how about having, say, 4-8 megs of edram "on-die cache", plus 64/128/256 MB of "standard" DDR (or maybe QDR? wouldn't need that high of a pin count, but still double the bandwidth of DDR) RAM...

Ah, I don't know... would never be able to afford it anyway, so why bother

AZ

[Sasq]

Hmm as a personal guess I'd get my hopes up

[frankymail]

Az, you're on the right track (not the QDR one) ...

[Nappe1]

Originally posted by frankymail
Guys,
Altough multichannel memory subsysytem is possible (4 x 64 bits or 2 x 128 bits), I suggest that you don't get your hopes to high about this. Does had too much pins... And 8 x 64 or 4 x 128 is out of the question; we want a fast graphic chip, not a cactus

if chip has DDR memory, Internal bus must be double wide (or running on doubled speed ) compared to external memory bus. so Internal 512Bit bus would mean 256Bit external DDR bus.

Also Matrox is already manufacturing card with same amount of traces for memory interface: 4 x G450 MMS has 4x64Bit DDR interfaces.

Originally posted by frankymail

About 256 bits memory: sure, it would be nice, but first: there isn't any readily available, and second: do you know how much 128 MB of 128 bits <= 3.6 ns DDR cost? Well, multiply that by about 1.5-1.6 and you get the projected price of 256 bits DDR memory...

has radeon 128Bit memory modules ?? no. because everyone uses 32 bit modules and for a 128Bit bus you need four them to full fill whole bus. In case of 256Bit bus, you will need 8 of them. And if we have 64MB memory, each chip is going to be 8 Megabytes. (8x8MB is 64 and 8x32bits is 256.)

Originally posted by frankymail

I think some of you haven't fully understood yet what "new memory design, different from all current video cards" means... I suggest you read my last post a second time...

C Ya

well, no offence, but as you can see, maybe you should check if your facts are right...

Anyways, I would be VERY suprised if we would see eRAM on chip. QDR or QBM would be possible though, but I don't think it's efficiency is even near to good multichannel 256Bit bus.

and because PCB production line for 4 x G450 MMS must have been very pricy (bacause High multi layer board design.), I don't see a reason why they would use it just for new MMS boards. The number of different boards made in same line directly corresponds the production cost of each board. (Until production line is 100% utilized. and I don't think that G450 MMS boards have enough markets to be only product manufactured from such a expensive line.)

That's why I see 256Bit Multichannel DDR Bus as logical step for Matrox. That seems to be only way to keep also product prices and/or manufacturing costs in some limits.

EDIT: few additions and typo fix.

[Ant]

I'm with the nappster1

[[INF]Psycho]

How about FCRAM?

(it's me, back from the dead )

[P5ycho]

damn, dug up the wrong old account...

[frankymail]

Nappe1,
I very sorry to tell you, but you're so wrong here, and the way you try to explain things just prove you have no idea what you are really talking about. So, I'll make it simple and give you a small example: take a Radeon 32 MB and a Radeon 64 MB. The 32 MB version has 4 memory chips and the 64 MB version has eight. The memory chips used on both cards are the same. Using you're conception of how memory works (which is wrong), the radeon 32 mb would have a 128 bits memory bus, and the 64 MB version a 256 bits bus; however, everyone know that it has a 128 bits memory bus. Memory modules are used in serie, not in parallel. Maybe you're talking about memory bank arrangement, but then again, things doesn't fit.

About the 4x G450 MMS: of course it has 4x the traces, pin count, memory channel and memory count, because it has 4 (four) G450 chips each equipped with their own RAM… BTW, the MMS 4x G450 uses a very usual 4 layers PCB. 4 and 6 layers boards are very common, 8 or 10 layers, however, are much more expensive to produce.

About eRam or whatever you want to call it: it's cheaper to use a $75chip with $125 memory than to use a $50 chip with $200 memory; and that what 128 MB of 256 bits DDR would cost, if it were available… Also, QDR is not even in production (that means you cannot buy large quantities of the chips…)

And what's this?

"well, no offence, but as you can see, maybe you should check if your facts are right... "

What facts are you talking about? If you got facts, my friend, you're the only one with the official Parhelia Brochure or Engineering Sample… You're just talking about rumors and coincidences here...

[boorce]

why DDR and QDR ?

Hmmm... I haven't read all the replies here, but, it seems that no one have looked on the RDRAM side of the problem !

RDRAM is fast. VERY fast for bandwidth hungry processors. and a graphic card could be a correct appliance for this kind of memory tech no ?

But I don't think matrox has a license to use it.
There could be other memory tech unknown by MURCers, not yet used in graphics.

[frankymail]

You said it: Direct RDRAM is excellent for bandwidth hundry CPUs like the P4. However, RDRAM bandwidth cannot compete with the high-speed DDR memory currently used on video cards... But maybe Rambus could annouce a high-speed rdram flavor, but it's unprobable.

[Greebe]

FM do you always base what you know to be true on past architecture, previous designs and or toy cards as all consumer Gcards will be known shortly?

Cast out what is the norm... conventional thought need not apply

Oh BTW... P doesn't use edram

[frankymail]

YEah, but don'T forget that most revolutions were only forced logical evolution

[Sasq]

FM,
You are talking a lot about 8 or 10 layers would be too expensive, and you also go on about ram cost etc.

First point: Who said this next card was going to be cheap

Second Point: There are people on this forum that I trust know a great deal more about what is comming then you do, and what they're telling us in complete contradiction to what you are trying to suggest.

Please Don't try to confuse people by trying to prove you know something that you obviously don't know.

Personally I am sick and tired of people spewing forth "oh matrox can't be doing it this way 'cause..." BS we know a new card is comming, and some people do know what is comming and they are giving us all the hints they can. And it irritates the 'ell outa me when people bounce in and directly contradict what people are risking getting themselves in the sh*t for by telling us.

[frankymail]

I no nothing about Parhelia I haven't heard on the Internet. However, I hope you're nto attacking my profeciency, because that would be a mistake...

I know it's going to cost you an arm or two, but were looking at a minimum of $350 material production cost if those cards were to use some of the designs mentionned here.

I also know that Parhelia will be fast, feature-packed, and expensive. I am willing to pay $500-600 US for the card I want.

We were only discussing on technical issues; I have no doubts at all that anyone in this forum (including me) would happily give a kidney or a lung to get a Parhelia board now

This raises an other question in my head: how much would you guys like to pay to get a engineering board? because if the price is right, I might consider breaking in and getting a few...