Official Launch date...

[Umfriend]

Yeah, but.....

Dan thought it usefull to say:
For consumers probably very little - except more nVblur™ From a marketing standpoint the longer you can have your product out their before others can catch up the better it is for the companies wallet.

But I don't think FM was looking at it from Matroxes point of view, but rather from a consumers' point of view. My question remains therefore: What's your point?

Dissapointment on the G400 thing? OK, but that still does not convinve me why any consumer would rather wait 3 months for the full chip+board announcement (and availability I presume), instead of having the chip announced now, the board next month and availability in two months time.

Then again, maybe I totally missed the point...

Umf

[a13antichrist]

Re: Yeah, but.....

Originally posted by Umfriend


But I don't think FM was looking at it from Matroxes point of view, but rather from a consumers' point of view. My question remains therefore: What's your point?
Umf

I understood him to be meaning from Matrox's point of view, which is more relelvant anyway since after all they're the ones making the decisions about when to release the chip & board.

[frankymail]

Antichrist is right… Hey, we're MURCers, which means we want to use Matrox' products. If Matrox' new products have a lot of early competition, their profits will be hurt bad, as they will have to cut in margins… Less profit means less R&D funding, which means less cutting-edge products, which leads to the downward spiral to bankruptcy. Isn't it what happenned to Tseng Labs, Cirrus Logic, Trident, 3Dlabs (their mainstream graphics departement) and even 3Dfx? Do we want Matrox' Faith to be the same as those companies' ? Do we want a nVIDIA card with a "Matrox Tech inside" sticker on the box? Don't think so. It's the art of war (business is war, isn't it?); the less your enemy knows about your intentions, ressources & strategies, the better. Let'S go Matrox, hit fast, and hit hard; you can fight the one you know has a sword, but you can't do anything against someone who you don't know has a dagger. (wow, I'm getting all psychological and stuff... !)

Axel: I agree with you; the way the G550 was introduced is the way I'd like to see Parhelia introduced: all at once; that way, the whole hardware community (as well as distributors, resellers, media (TV/Radio/written) won't have time to forget the "what's-the-name-of-that-chip-that-was-announced-three-months-ago" chip. Which will translate into more, profit, better products and lower prices (ok, maybe i'm day-dreaming on that one )

[ZokesPro]

Originally posted by frankymail
Antichrist is right… Hey, we're MURCers, which means we want to use Matrox' products. If Matrox' new products have a lot of early competition, their profits will be hurt bad, as they will have to cut in margins… Less profit means less R&D funding, which means less cutting-edge products, which leads to the downward spiral to bankruptcy. Isn't it what happenned to Tseng Labs, Cirrus Logic, Trident, 3Dlabs (their mainstream graphics departement) and even 3Dfx? Do we want Matrox' Faith to be the same as those companies' ? Do we want a nVIDIA card with a "Matrox Tech inside" sticker on the box? Don't think so. It's the art of war (business is war, isn't it?); the less your enemy knows about your intentions, ressources & strategies, the better. Let'S go Matrox, hit fast, and hit hard; you can fight the one you know has a sword, but you can't do anything against someone who you don't know has a dagger. (wow, I'm getting all psychological and stuff... euk!)

You go girl! (kidding, I know your a dude)

Seriously, you make a good point. I'm with you.

[Umfriend]

I don't get this at all

Originally posted by frankymail:
Antichrist is right… Hey, we're MURCers, which means we want to use Matrox' products.

Well, I am a mini murcer because I use and think I want to use future Matrox products, I do not want to use Matrox because I am a mini murcer. I care about the product, couldn't care less about Matrox itself. If Nvidia gave me the exact same product, about $1 cheaper, it'd be goodbye M, hello N.

You're obeservations on how to introduce a product may well make sense Mr. Mail, from a business point of view. But when u said: "I don't want to drool over Parhelia specs for 4 months before I actually get a board", I really thought that was from you point of view, which I beleived to be from a consumers' point of view.

Anti: "I understood him to be meaning from Matrox's point of view", I still don't see how one could understand that to be the case.

It may be that I am simply an imbecile and don't understand anything though...

In any case, I as a (potential) consumer and assuming that the Board will get there in four months, prefer to have any real info NOW as opposed to have to wait for four months for anything

nuff said,

Umf

[a13antichrist]

Originally posted by frankymail
What good is a chipset announcement anyway? Annoucing the Chip long before the board can only lead to mroe competition from other companies: Remember the good old Radeon 8500? It caught nVIDIA unprepared and the had to rush-release the G3 Ti line, as their NV25 part was far from ready... The same thing When nVIDIA announced the GeForce 256: ATI was unprepared with only it's Rage 128 Pro, so they had to rush the Rage 128 MAXX out. Announcing the Parhelia chip now and annoucing the boards in 2 months would only give ATI & nVIDIA time to respectively announce the R300 and NV30, which are both supposed to be very-high-end DX9 compliant designs...

Well, the tone of that passage is stressing competition between manufacturers. As he is stating that would be bad, I fail to see how it could possibly be interpreted other than from Matrox's POV - because, as you say, it -would- be good for the consumer So merely the fact that he says it'd be bad tells you meant from Matrox's side of things.

On the other hand, a lot of people here will not ever consider buying an Nvidia product (I certainly won't), and many even go as far as to buy only Matrox. In this scenario, even for the consumer the delay between chip & board would be bad - which accounts for the second section of his post:

I don't want to drool over Parhelia specs for 4 months before I actually get a board (like what happenned to me with the G400: chipp announced in march, board received at the end of July )

So in either case, the delay is bad. Your initial challenge was "why should it be bad?"; the substantial majority of the post talks about manufacturing competition being bad so the only conclusion possible there is that he was referring to Matrox' point of view. Even this factor aside, consumers only buying Matrox wouldn't care less about manufacturing competition, so even the BASIS of your objection must be rejected - that the delay -couldn't- be bad as it would cause other manufacturers to release their new products sooner.

Now for the final nail in your coffin.. ():

Originally posted by frankymail

Hey, we're MURCers, which means we want to use Matrox' products.

You reply with:

Originally posted by Umfriend

Well, I am a mini murcer because I use and think I want to use future Matrox products, I do not want to use Matrox because I am a mini murcer. I care about the product, couldn't care less about Matrox itself. If Nvidia gave me the exact same product, about $1 cheaper, it'd be goodbye M, hello N.

Umf

You've confused his syntax here. He states: "Being a MURCer means we want to use Matrox products. He did -not- say, "Hey, we're MURCers, which is why we like Matrox products". In his example, "which means" can only be interpreted as "as a result of". Being a MURCer is a result of liking Matrox products - the opposite of "which is why" which would be interpreted as "is the cause": "Being a MURCer is the cause of liking Matrox products" - which is the conclusion you have inferred. So again your challenge of his statement must be overruled.

[Umfriend]

antichrist,

I think you just smashed your thumb while trying to hammer in the final nail....

My initial reaction was to:

Posted by frankymail:
Anyway, I don't really care about chip annoucement; what I really care about is board annoucement: what I want with Parhelia, is an announcement of both chipa & boards on the same day,

FM stated HE did not care about etc.... How was I supposed to know that FM is really Matrox and that he doesn't care about it because it's bad for him as a company? I assumed (and still do) that FM didn't want a chip announced if the board would take a while longer, I disagreed: given that it takes X months till the board arrives, I still want any other info earlier, as early as possible.

I think a lot of ppl would agree, given questions like "He Haig, should I wait?"...

The the quote starting with:

What good is a chipset announcement anyway? Annoucing the Chip long before the board can only lead to mroe competition from other companies: Remember the good old Radeon 8500?

etc, indeed seems to point to considerations due to competition, but again, IMHO, from a loyal fan points of view: "if they announce too early, competition will get something similar/at par/competing with the Matrox product, AND I AS A FAN DON"T WANT THAT! I Want my Matrox to be the BEST, and if that takes hiding info, thatn that is the way to go."

FM may feel that way, you may agree, but I don't.

And now to you:

On the other hand, a lot of people here will not ever consider buying an Nvidia product (I certainly won't), and many even go as far as to buy only Matrox. In this scenario, even for the consumer the

This is silly, if you don't buy Nvidia, what do YOU care if their product is better (or worse)? U just want Matrox, the only brand you'll buy, to be as good as possible.

Then you continue:

So in either case, the delay is bad.

Where have I EVER suggested that anything should be delayed? You make it sound like I'd want Matrox to announce the chip now and announce the board later, EVEN IF they could've announced both today.

Then on to the nail:

You've confused his syntax here. He states: "Being a MURCer means we want to use Matrox products.

.

Read his entire post, not just the snapshot I took out of it. He seems clearly worried that competition will hurt Matrox, which is a problem because HE WANTS TO USE MATROX.

His syntax was ambigous, but I think the meaning was clear and that my interpretation is far closer to the truth than yours, which is just plain wrong.

To end this post with on of the most annoying endings I have ever seen to a discussion posting:

You Sir, stand refuted.

Umf

[Tempest]

*sobbing* Can't we just all be friends
Remember that thing about Internet and the Special Olympics? Now stop that or Ant is going to have your heads for dinner

[a13antichrist]

I'm sorry, but you could not be more wrong.

First of all, your objection was:

Originally posted by Umfriend
If the announcement would cause others to introduce better products sooner, then what would be the problem exactly?

Whether that was your first objection in the thread or the second is irrelevant; the "initial" refers to the fact that it is the first of objection to be challenged. In fact your other comment (following his statement that he didn't care about chip announcement - the quote you've posted in your last post) was not a challenge at all, but merely a humourous poke - which I for one found funny, as I'm sure most did.


Furthermore:

Originally posted by Umfriend
FM stated HE did not care about etc.... How was I supposed to know that FM is really Matrox and that he doesn't care about it because it's bad for him as a company? I assumed (and still do) that FM didn't want a chip announced if the board would take a while longer, I disagreed: given that it takes X months till the board arrives, I still want any other info earlier, as early as possible.

You're getting yourself confused now. You've mixed up two of his posts. His statement that he cared only about the board came before any mention of anything being bad. The reason he just cares about the board announcement is so that HE, as a consumer, can have a board to use - NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT WHEN IN RELATION TO THE CHIP THE BOARD WAS RELEASED. So your objection could not POSSIBLY have been caused by his statement that he only wanted the board.

[/b]Then[/b], in fact in response to your response to his statement that he only cared about he board, he brought up the issue of the delay between chip and board.

A further issue: you state that many people would like as much information as possible, as soon as possible. Now you make a HUGE mistake and try to speak on behalf of the MURCers!! He says straight-out:

Originally posted by frankymail
I don't want to drool over Parhelia specs for 4 months before I actually get a board

He -doesn't- want info earlier as he doesn't want to have to bear the almost-but-not-quite sensation - very understandably. Now it may well be that SOME PEOPLE do want the chip info as soon as possible, but your assumption is that the alternative is next-to impossible. So again you are wrong.

Continuing:

Originally posted by Umfriend
The the quote starting with:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What good is a chipset announcement anyway? Annoucing the Chip long before the board can only lead to mroe competition from other companies: Remember the good old Radeon 8500?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

etc, indeed seems to point to considerations due to competition, but again, IMHO, from a loyal fan points of view: "if they announce too early, competition will get something similar/at par/competing with the Matrox product, AND I AS A FAN DON"T WANT THAT! I Want my Matrox to be the BEST, and if that takes hiding info, thatn that is the way to go."

Here you make your biggest mistake of all. WHETHER THE COMPETITIONS' PRODUCTS ARE BETTER OR WORSE IS IRRELEVANT FROM A MATROX USER's POINT OF VIEW. Probably a good 1/4 of this forum at least are still using 3yr-old cards taht are MILES behind the competition, but we continue to use them anyway. WE COULDN'T CARE LESS IF Nvidia's next card is faster than Parhelila, as long as Parhelia can do what is does well. HOWEVER, Matrox fans also CARE about their comapny (something which cannot be said for NVidiots) so we also want to look out for Marox's interests. Hence the reason that a delay between chip and card would be bad.

Originally posted by Umfriend
And now to you:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the other hand, a lot of people here will not ever consider buying an Nvidia product (I certainly won't), and many even go as far as to buy only Matrox. In this scenario, even for the consumer the
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is silly, if you don't buy Nvidia, what do YOU care if their product is better (or worse)? U just want Matrox, the only brand you'll buy, to be as good as possible.

Precisely. I believe that is exactly what I just posted above.

Originally posted by Umfriend
Then you continue:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So in either case, the delay is bad.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where have I EVER suggested that anything should be delayed? You make it sound like I'd want Matrox to announce the chip now and announce the board later, EVEN IF they could've announced both today.

-YOU- haven't suggested anything should be delayed. What you DID say, however, in case you've forgotten what this discussion is all about in the first place, is that the extra competition would be good. Had you not misread his post, you would have agreed that the delay, and hence extra competition, would be bad for Matrox. However your fault in assuming he meant the delay would be bad for the consumer is ALSO incorrect as he only wants Matrox - I demonstrated this in my last post so I find it strange that you failed to grasp this the first time.

Originally posted by Umfriend
Read his entire post, not just the snapshot I took out of it. He seems clearly worried that competition will hurt Matrox, which is a problem because HE WANTS TO USE MATROX.

I think it is YOU who needs to do a bit of re-reading. Now you are claiming that he did indeed post from Matrox's point of view. Make up your mind please!! Furthermore, the reason this is a problem isn't because he "wants to use Matrox" - it's becaues he cares about Matrox and doesn't want to see any harm come to them. On a secondary level, yes you can argue this is so that they can produce more cards for him in the future. But primarily, he is looking out for Matrox's interests.

Originally posted by Umfriend
His syntax was ambigous, but I think the meaning was clear and that my interpretation is far closer to the truth than yours, which is just plain wrong.

His syntax was not in the least ambiguous. Given the number of mis-interpretations you've made in this thread so far though, I can understand that you are likely to have had trouble with that particular statement. And you'll find it is quite clearly -your- interpretation that is far from accurate.


I think your primary failing here is that you fail to grasp three primary characteristics of a MURCer:

• We CARE about the company.
• We DON'T care if it's the fastest, as long as it's GOOD.
• We are LOYAL to the company, and will stick with older Matrox products rather than go for the spangling new crap from Nvidia.

I suggest you re-read this thread with those characteristics in mind, and see if you can arrive at the same level of comprehension that the rest of us managed the first time around.

Oh, and:

You Sir, stand re-refuted.

[Wombat]

Of course, all this is coming from a guy with 45 posts.

Everybody chill out. We're MURCers because of what the MURC is and how people act here. Let the flames die out, or we won't have any more to do with you.

[a13antichrist]

Originally posted by Wombat
Of course, all this is coming from a guy with 45 posts.

Everybody chill out. We're MURCers because of what the MURC is and how people act here. Let the flames die out, or we won't have any more to do with you.

Hey, who's side are you on here??

And in any case, where are these supposed flames? This is one of the most civil debates I've seen in a LONG time. Disagreement is not by any means the same thing as flaming, you know..

[Cobos]

But seriously... I'm with Wombat here... after all you two has just spent the last 4 posts discussing what a third person actually means/meant ))
It might just be me but I find that a bit strange

Cobos

[a13antichrist]

Well it beats sitting here twiddling our thumbs while we wait for the new board (as opposed to chip ), no??

[Cobos]

I'll give you that, it has a certain entertainment value
But I'm seriously waiting for any kind if announcement now....

Cobos

[Tempest]

Why I asked you (a13antichrist&Umfriend) to stop earlier on is that these things tend to start civilized but then someone says something nasty and the flaming begins. But I'm happy if this one doesn't turn up like that. Everybody has their own reasons and I don't need to know about them - it's enough for me to know that we're here because we use and/or are otherwise interested in Matrox hardware.

Well, something to do with the topic...
If the new card offers mostly speed (in addition to some DX9 features and greater colour accuracy) then I don't think Matrox will end up very far ahead of the competition. The R300 is rumoured to double the speed of Radeon 8500 and to be available earlier than expected. Both Nvidia and 3DLabs will probably catch up soon enough.
What could really be a kick in the pants for the others is if Matrox' next gen card was readily available in a couple of months. Sadly, I don't think this is going to happen. The G550 was a special case in many aspects - the card was touted but the chip itself pretty much ignored. There probably was no desire for it either - they probably had a hard time finding any good aspects in their G800 Vanta
So I think we'll be likely to see a chip announcement Soon™ and the card presented a couple of months later. Then again, that doesn't matter if the card came loaded with useful (no, NOT head casting) Matrox-specific features that other manufacturers can not provide. The kind of features that even those outside of MURC could appreciate.