I guess no one cares though

[KvHagedorn]

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6485

[Pace]

Multi-culturism sounds nice though - but it's too often used as a buzzword to gain votes - and earn money.

Pym Fortuyn certainly sounded like a reasonable chap...

[KvHagedorn]

Multiculturalism is a deep and abiding wrong. It is a lie.

It's trite, but true.. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

Unbridled freedom is not good.. it is absolute neutrality. To proclaim neutrality by seeking unbridled freedom is to reject the good which is offered. In rejecting good, a fertile ground for evil emerges.

We are talking about a small country which was homogeneously Germanic barely 50 years ago. In the name of freedom these people are committing self-genocide. Do none of them care?

Those who do not stand against this invasion are standing FOR genocide... their own.

[KvHagedorn]

Tolerance for Intolerance?

http://www.partisanreview.org/archive/2002/3/bawer.html

[bambam]

Those who do not stand against this invasion are standing FOR genocide... their own.

Wow, that is the openly racist thing I have ever read on this site. Why don't you join some like-minded club, like the Hitler Youth. Unreal.

[The PIT]

Funny my old landlord said basically the same thing and he was err Asian and Err Muslim. Strangly when he says such comments people listen but if you say the same thing and your white you're a racist.
He also said we're stupid by the way.

[Gurm]

Yup.

While I disapprove of KvH's level of vehemence, I have to say that there is a problem. Not a racial problem, nor a tolerance problem, but a very real problem nonetheless. But it's a tricky situation.

Basically, a country has to be for or against certain things. Holland has, in recent history, been FOR sexual liberation and the safe use of non-dangerous drugs (let's NOT start a new argument about pot and hash PLEASE?).

The United States is FOR personal freedoms, with a few notable exceptions (like the freedom to sell your body or the freedom to toke up).

Muslims, sadly, are AGAINST the ideals of both of these countries.

So the question is, how do you go about making sure that there is not a Muslim majority to vote out all these ideals and freedoms... without doing something perceived as nasty, like not allowing in any more Muslims?

Sadly, it's looking more and more like you need to... not allow in any more Muslims. Sorry.

- Gurm

[The PIT]

Just imagine the outcry if someone like Oliver Cromwell came to power in the UK.

[Gurm]

LOL. Yeah well.

[SpiralDragon]

while i disagree with KVH i have to say that politics and religion should never mix.... back here in leb we have a very big problem... two main religions (christianity and islam) and several sects... our president by law has to be a maronite christian, the PM a suni muslim and the head of parlamint a shiiat muslim... with several of the higher cabinet ministers being christian.... MP elections are based one religion... so and so seets in this area for marointes, orthodox, suni, shiiait, druz... etc..... belive me when i tell you that when it comes to rule of law it is so damnd hard to get anything right..... asid from the deap level of curuption in there.... its bad... out right bad for a state not to retain secular laws....

it reminds me of the time when govt was going to legalise civil mariage.... the majority of the MPs voted against it, the religous leaders of all sides joined aginst it... but did anyone realy care about what the people wanted... NO.... they just went on and did it..... no civil mariage... no choice..... and they keep on bragong about how leb is a "democratic" country... (my a$$)

any way the point of this is that it dosent mater if its the muslims or the christians or who ever it is trying to inforce sharia or laws based on religious belifes... it is not right... not in this age.... and that my freinds cant be altered with war or weapons or viloence... the only thing that can change this is FREE HIGH QULITY EDUCATION.... instead of teaching religion in schools (as is done in sever schools here) teach about the difrent religions.... teach about culture and how to be a cultured person with a rich background instead of going for that we arabs or we europeans or we americans etc. bullshit.... the world is converging we are becoming a globale vilage and with that process our cultures to have to converge too.... resistance is futile it will only creat unnecesary complications..... teach people how to keep religion a mater of self and god instead of nation and god... seperate realigion from politics for good ... and racisem too... and then go about bulding a healthy world.......


then again i have always ben a dreamer and an idealist... but unlike most of you here i have lived through war propagated by so caled "religious" bullshit reasons, the greater half of my life and belive you me... after having read and studied the history bloody history of my country (several civil wars dating as far back as the 16ths century and more) i have come to one conlusion.... the out come is always the same...... FAILIUR..... no one ever wins.... but every one looses.... and then they fight again.... and again ... and yet again.... and in peace they never ever try to realy fix the problem once and forall... no on the countrary they just build up more reasons for the next war..... to hell with war i say... and to hell with religion and religious liers.. oups... leaders... and to hell with the politicians who are only intrested in power and money.......



ok i have said enugh and too much and maybe off topic to ... but i am pissed at a few insidents that hapned recently at uni and i am venting here......

sory folkes... bare with me

[thop]

It's not like the western world is exactly overrun by muslims , they are still outnumbered probably 100:1 - and this is not gonna change anytime soon.
The muslim world will sooner adopt the western culture than we theirs. Anyone thinking otherwise is paranoid. I have spoken

[dZeus]

lol, what kind of sensationalist crap did KvH post this time? Let's see

There's only a very very small muslim extremists group who tell the stuff posted in the article. Of course, sadly enough, they are the most vocal as well.

But.... they don't seem to have much infuence at all on other muslims.

btw. AEL is, imho, a reactionary movement to a Belgian/flemmish political party called 'Vlaams Blok' which builds its popularity on xenophobism but recently got rid of their anti-semitic 'elements' to please potential voters form the jewist district in Antwerpen, where the majority of Vlaams Blok voters live. (as a reaction to AEL).

I don't see the AEL getting any votes in this country, as there hasn't been much of a 'muslim witch hunt' here since 9/11.

[Umfriend]

OK, on the inital artivle referred to by KvH, my gawd, where to begin...

Readers may recall the assassination about a year ago of gay activist Pym Fortuyn – a politician often labeled a "hard right-winger" by the fascist lefty media. Far from being a rightist, even in the most generalized sense, Fortuyn feared that Muslim immigrants were getting far too loud a voice in Dutch politics, and he campaigned, and gained widespread support, on a platform of limiting, or stopping entirely, Muslim immigation and opposing any further concessions.

First of all, I can see now where KvH gets the notion of media being biased from. Nice catchy characterisation "fascitst lefty media", isn't it? It is BS none the less. Pim Fortuyn was a right winger. What's wrong with that? None of the Dutch media attacked him for being right wing (and bear in mind, right wing is different here than it is in the US probably). He was a right winger. That is why his party was able to form a coalition with another right wing party and a central-to-right wing christen-democrat party. He did not say the Muslims were getting too loud a voice in politics. What he DID say was that the pace at which immigrants intergrated was far too slow. He did not want too limit immigration of Muslims per se, but of people who would increase the problem of integration in the Netherlands. He was very much concerned about how Muslims viewed women and homosexuals, that is true. BTW, this was not his MAIN topic, he had no MAIN topic. He had four very important issues, and was mostly at a loss exactly how to deal with them (this doesn't do him right as he deserves exactly, but he, English is hard for me).

PF was not murdered by a Muslim, or someome of any other ethnic background. A sound real deal Dutch man is going to trial for this murder. It's not entirely clear, but it seems asif this whole immigrant thing did not have anything to do with it.

Opponents, predictably, accused him of racism, a charge he effortlessly felled

Very few opponents have accused him of racism, and the ones that did, did so for a short time only.

Furthermore, as far as I know, nor the AEL, nor the AEL-NL are on any shortlist of terrorist organisations, except for Mr. Horowitz his own. Students have caused riots far larger than the AEL in Europe, often for less reason.

While he was on a roll, he also demanded that Islamic holidays be declared public holidays in the Netherlands and that Turkish and Arabic make an appearance for selection in the public schools’ curriculum for national exams

So? What is the problem of having these up for selection exactly? We can choose French, German, Spanish (some schools) and Frisian . For all I care, we add Japanese, Swahili and Martian as well. I honestly do not have a recoleection of the AEL-NL pushing for declaring Islamic holidays as public holidays. May have missed that. So? A bunch of weird guys are going for some weird stuff...happens all the time.

But then, never let it be said that the Dutch government banned anything. They have legalized drugs, they have legalized euthanesia. You name it, Holland’s got it. So now it’s got an official, legal terrorist organization dedicate to erasing all these typical Dutch freedoms and the Dutch way of life. Can tolerance go any further?

So wait, we legalise all these things because we are liberal, but we would allow others to take it away from us? One sentence: GET REAL!. Our christian parties of course were opposed to all these things. Again, show me where the AEL or AEL-NL are noted as terrorist organisations? SOund nice though, doesn't it? "They have this, they have that, [B]and now....[/B/

The Dutch AEL press officer NaVma Elmaslouhi, for example was quoted as telling Saturday’s Handelsblad newspaper in advance of Sunday’s inaugural meeting of the Dutch AEL that she didn’t disapprove of Moroccan youngsters chanting "Hamas, Hamas, gas the Jews," as happened during a protest march in Amsterdam in 2002.

Right, she did, and guess what the reaction of the lefty liberal fascist stupid moronic imbecile docile media was? Of the politicians and of a number of Muslim organisations representing a lot of Muslims in the Netherlands? She took it back before the monday paper was out, and no, this will not be easily forgotten by the lefty fascist media, no matter how forgiving you think they are towards Muslims.
As a side note, we have a soccer club in the Netherlands called Ajax. Pre WWII this was known as a club with a lot of jewish members. Nowadays, the supporters call themselves "super-jews". The frase "Hamas, Hamas, Joden aan het Gas" (yeah, it rhymes in Dutch....) was initially coined by soccer fans of other soccer clubs, and guess what, they weren't friggin Muslims....

The funniest thing is, most of what PF has been saying about integration of ethnic groups, has been argued by the Socialist Party as of the beginning of the 80's. One thing that made it hard for them to make their case (aside from being very small at the time) was that at the same time we actually did have a racist party running in the elections that were shouting, deluding, generalising, implying and insinuating in the same way as dear Mr. Horowitz. This has made any sound decent discussion on this topic very hard at the time. If there is one thing PF did accomplish than it is that we can actually discuss these things soundly. It takes an ****olum like Mr. Horowitz to polarise and abstruct this.
Umf

Oh, it is late. Did not get round to that Bruce Bawer guy. Should I meet him I would kick his ass. That guy is great at quoting like minded people and substaniating this with inaccurate assesments of actual facts. Twisting and melding the truth until it suits.

[KvHagedorn]

I'm sorry if I have seemed rabid, but when reading stuff like this, it is difficult not to respond..

Then, in September 2001 (only five days, in fact, before the destruction of the World Trade Center), the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet reported that 65 percent of rapes of Norwegian women were performed by "non-Western" immigrants?a category that, in Norway, consists mostly of Muslims. The article quoted a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo (who was described as having "lived for many years in Muslim countries") as saying that "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. One reason for the high number of rapes by Muslims, explained the professor, was that in their native countries "rape is scarcely punished," since Muslims "believe that it is women who are responsible for rape." The professor?s conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it."

This sort of attitude is totally out of hand. A Norwegian professor telling Norwegian women they will just have to put up with being raped in the name of multiculturalism. What sort of a person could possibly be this twisted?

[Umfriend]

Indeed, I feel the same hardship as you do. Why on earth do these people like Bruce Bawer publish this kind of bullshit? I've skimmed over what he had to say on the Netherlands, and it is nicely construed biased propoganda. It is based on a number of commonplaces about the Netherlands which are only half true, added some inaccaruate (to say the least) reports on events and/or people and, of course, there is the shocking first hand experience that the author has and makes his story truthfull.
I like the bit about where this guy jumps from the Netherlands to Afghanistan, Saudi-Arabia and Iran. That actually makes as much sense as talking about them darned Irish Catholics in the US, I mean, look at what they've done in Northern Ireland?
I doubt this quote by same said person, to say the least. Any one out there that could get me that article?
KvH, I got burned once when I reacted to a quote you made in MURC, which I assumed you agreed with (otherwise, why quote if you do not comment on it). So I'm gonna ask you. Do you believe these guys Horowitz and Bawer? Let's limit this to what they say about the Netherlands, do you believe it? Do you agree with their statements? I'd really, really, like to know what you think about the Horowitz article now.
Umf