I guess no one cares though

[KvHagedorn]

It certainly rings true given other information I have heard over the past couple of years. A personal friend from Holland (his family are devout Dutch-Reformed Christians) who now lives here tells me it has changed so much there recently that he doesn't really feel like moving back. He was attacked by a gang of Turks on his very doorstep, and he lives in a relatively small town. His friends there feel the intrusion of alien culture as well.. they don't like it. One of his friends was reacting to a new mosque that was being built in their small, quiet town.. he said he was going to take out that speaker with a brick when they started blaring their middle eastern music out into the public street.

I have no reason to doubt that that quote above is genuine either. Aftenposten and Dagbladet are Norwegian news sources I have heard of, but am not familiar with their reputations. I have no reason not to believe that this professor is real and said the things he did.. it is believable, though, from what I have heard elsewhere. People in Europe are quite naive about the problem of multiculturalism. Cohabitation with very different cultures is a relatively new thing there. You will all just have to learn the hard way, I suppose. Idealism and reality are just not the same thing. You guys who do not care about the survival of your people and culture just baffle me.. how can you care so much about material things and not care about this? Is it simply that political correctness has frightend most of you into submission? Is it that the naive young women you want to go out with are the typical unrealistic idealists such women tend to be, and you can't bring yourself to think they could be wrong? Or do you just not have the capacity to look at the demographic trends and REALIZE that you are being displaced in your own small country.. that all you have worked for as a people is about to be utterly wiped out? Fifty years is not that long a time, and if the trends continue, you WILL be displaced.

But like I said.. I guess nobody cares.

[The PIT]

A good read about race relations is the Bradford report. The report has been put together by people from all ethnic backgrounds. The fact that it was put together by these people mean't that the do gooders couldn't label it racist trash so they hid it instead.
It's a large pdf but does outline the problems very well. Try searching for it and see if you can find it.

[KvHagedorn]

Thanks for that info, TP..

I'm sorry I riled things up here with a geopolitical thread again.. I'm going to stop replying here.. go ahead and flame or bait me, those who wish to.

[Umfriend]

Oh man, societies change. There is always a reason why some don't like what is happening. And yes, some people have been attacked by Turks. Others have been attacked by Dutch people, christian Surinams and some by chinese. Shit happens.
There is NO mosque that blares music into public streets. Not in public streets in small quiet towns and not in big cities (insofar we have any).
I did not BTW put in question Aftenposten and Dagbladet. I have serious doubts about B. Bawer though.

People in Europe are quite naive about the problem of multiculturalism. Cohabitation with very different cultures is a relatively new thing there. You will all just have to learn the hard way

Know what? I think this is true. It is not something that goes OK just like that. We will be able to deal with the problems raised though. May take time, make be hard and mistakes may be made, but we will prevail.

You guys who do not care about the survival of your people and culture just baffle me.. how can you care so much about material things and not care about this? Is it simply that political correctness has frightend most of you into submission? Is it that the naive young women you want to go out with are the typical unrealistic idealists such women tend to be, and you can't bring yourself to think they could be wrong?

It must be me, but I find this kind of arguing hard to deal with, because you are attributing a number of properties at the same time that are not related to each other. I do care about the survival of the society I am part of. This has nothing to do with whether I am a materialist or not. I think most of my opinions are PC, but I would not know for sure. I do not care about PC. Finally, what's this shit about naive young women? Do you know any other type aside from women that agree with you? What does going out with woman have to do with this anyway? What's the point of that question anyway? Are you implying I play nice with the ladies to get them in the sack with me? I mean, I do not want to go out with naive young women, I doubt whether they are typical unrealistic idealists, I can bring myself to seeing anyone as being wrong (even you ). That is the problem I have with your way of arguing. To counter that one question, I actually have to counter at least three seperate statements.
50 years ago, dempgraphic trends would have indicated that the catholics would grow from a minority to a majority because they raised larger families. At that time, the Dutch ppl were rather clearly divisible in three groups: Protestant, Catholic and Socialst(-Democrat). They had seperate schools, churches, clubs etc. Mariages between the groups were uncommon and often met dissaproval from both families and groups. Instead of hammering on differences, warning for "being taken over" and stuff like that, we grew, learned and prospered by accepting, integrating and still keeping what was essential to ourselves. We will do that again now, although the biggest adaptations will come from the "newcomers". Nowadays, it may seem as if these groups all had a binding background (roman/judeo-christian?) that kept them together. If you told them that 50 years ago, you'd be asking for a good shake-out.
Umf

[Umfriend]

See how long it takes me to post a reply? OK, let's call it a day then.
Umf

[KvHagedorn]

Thanks for the reasonable discussion, Umf. If it seemed I was targeting you in particular there, I wasn't. It was meant for whatever individual might read it. This is a very depressing topic though, so perhaps we can take another long rest from politics now.

[Umfriend]

Just to be sure (and desperately try to have the last say ), I WAS targeting you in particular, not in an attacking sense but in the sense that I was mainly discussing with you and reacting on your contributions to this thread. I don't feel attacked by you and did not mean (and hope you did not take it as such) to attack you in a personal sense.

Yuck! We are getting way to PC here

Cya l8er m8. Sleep well.
Umf

[The PIT]

Okay lets talk about the Welsh then.
Baabaa

[Gurm]

Well look, to get away from Muslim bashing...

Well, no.

The problem is that there is a VERY vocal group of extremist Muslims that have a tendency to be at least tacitly backed by the less extreme Muslims. This is how you get situations like Saudi Arabia. The extremists yell and hoot and hollar, and the moderates vote for the extremists!

The same thing happens with Christianity. A small vocal extremist group kills off abortion doctors. The majority of moderate Christians says "nobody should kill anybody" but they HELP OUT those bizarros who want the abortion doctors dead, harboring and sheltering them and giving them a sympathetic ear for their bizarreness.

Religious extremism of all kinds is to be discouraged from coming anywhere near mainstream lawmaking. Period.

Now, that said... Christians don't want to kill anyone because they're an "infidel". Muslims do. You can tell me again and again that the moderates don't. But I've read the Q'ran, and "kill all the enemies of Allah" is pretty damn specific. Question is - can we convince them that we AREN'T "enemies of Allah"?

- Gurm

[Umfriend]

Religious extremism of all kinds is to be discouraged from coming anywhere near mainstream lawmaking. Period.

Hear, hear. Totally agree. This is the 11th commandment.

Christians don't want to kill anyone because they're an "infidel". Muslims do. You can tell me again and again that the moderates don't. But I've read the Q'ran, and "kill all the enemies of Allah" is pretty damn specific. Question is - can we convince them that we AREN'T "enemies of Allah"?

I think christians have killed people because they were infidels in the past though. I've been told that the Q'ran also states that Jews and Christians are people of the Book and should be left alone. Having said that, the fact that the Q'ran (apparantly) calls for the killing of some people alone is troublesome to say the least. AFAIAC, they can shove it.

Unfortunately, I haven't read the Q'ran yet. Planning to start with the old testament, the talmud, new testament and the Q'ran. Currently though I'm struggling with Godel, Escher, Bach from a weirdo called Hofstadter
Umf

[GNEP]

Hmmm. Guess I am a bit threatened then as an atheist-bordering-on-nihilist?

[Gurm]

Well, Christians certainly HAVE, in less civilized times, killed nonbelievers.

But the Bible doesn't tell them to. Christ said to love your enemies more than your friends, and that if someone hits you, you should turn the other cheek.

The OLD Testament was full of smiting. But each time, God _specifically_ told the Hebrews to go smite someone.

Like "Go now and smite the Philistines utterly..."

It was always a direct and specific command.

There was never any biblical commandment to kill non-Jews or non-Christians.

Sad.

- Gurm

[Umfriend]

Not even within the promised land?
Umf

[DukeP]

Nope.

~~DukeP~~

[Umfriend]

AIn't them Jews kewl? A bit silly perhaps for believin all that stuff, but still...pretyy kewl! Xcept if you're Jewish and gay of course.....
Umf