EU may get a membership application....

[The PIT]

Yes lets keep making the EU larger. The bigger it gets the more unworkable it will get.

[Nowhere]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn
Funny, that's basically my reason. Has any other country in recent memory suffered occupation for 60 years?

50 will do? (and something that was more a occupation than in RFN...and in many more countries, including DDR).
Anyway, once american troops move here we'll quickly catch up

Seriously...that doesn't make much of a difference to me.
hmmm...maybe only when it comes to humvees (or maybe , we'll see )

[az]

Haven't seen one Humvee in my entire life.. but maybe that's because I lived in Berlin.

AZ

[Nowhere]

The case in not in seeing one. I will explain...

My buddy knows someone who've got a retired ('89) humvee (not cyvil model of course ...but too bad the oryginal owners didn't leave m60 on top of it ) from Americans stationing in Germany. Well...maybe from the military point of view it's a little wreck...but for him this machine is just amazing
btw, it's one of only three humvees at all in Poland that we're aware of (a car like this isn't hard to spot on roads here - and because they're in pretty poor condition it's also the perfect car to have here ).
Overall, my buddy thinks about getting the 4th one (the owner of 3rd one apparently didn't agree for giving his one in exchange for toyota, lanos, motorcycle, mower and two rooms in house)...and I'm afraid that after the day I'll drive this thing I'll want to be next in the line
The good thing about Americans moving here would be that the cost wouldn't include border taxes anymore (which are pretty high for a car that old and with huge engine).
But seriously, this won't matter in a year anyway because of EU probably...

[UtwigMU]

WRT to humvees, our army equiped 10th mechanized batallion (mainly used for peacekeeping operations - Bosnia, Afghanistan). When I was serving, there was a test vehicle parked at the barracks. There are a few private owned as well.

WRT to Cyprus: no more offshores, etc...

WRT to Israel, untill they don't solve their problems, I'm against them being in EU.

[GuchiGuh]

I only have to say one thing:

Leopart Drei


jokes jokes....ummm....i dun really mind hey will be cool if we all work together, but then yet again, in WW1, the brining together of europe caused war~~ but we aint that stupid anymore (i hope)

[Brian Ellis]

I'm all for the EU where it can work and the people can afford to pay horrendous taxes to cover the enormous costs of conforming to all the 100,000-odd Directives and other regulations, at least half of which are stupid and are designed only to ensure bureaucrats remain in work. This is not the case on this island. In the last two years, the VAT , for example, has risen from 8% to 15%, to conform to EU norms. This 7% increase is not reflected in cost-of-living indices, which are calculated on VAT-free prices, so that COL index has increased in that time by ~2%, but it hits the consumer at ~9%. That hurts and hurts hard the avergae Cypriot whos salary is only less than half that of Germans, French et al. It has hurt the tourism industry, as hotels have to charge VAT (combined with fewer tourists for other reasons). The stats show that the average tourist is spending no more, in fact a little less, but the fisc is the beneficiary, not those hoteliers, restaurateurs and shopkeepers who depend on tourist to live.

What will be the advantages? Cheaper French and Italian wine to compete with the local wine industry?

In fact, the average Cypriot hasn't got a clue how much accession will cost him: a lot more than he realises.

And neither Cypriot cucumbers nor bananas conform to EU Directives on size and straightness, so will not be exportable to the EU, any more than they are today.

The accession is a little governmental vainglory to prove they are truly European.

[efty]

The accession is a little governmental vainglory to prove they are truly European.

I don't know for how long you have been in Cyprus but the main purpose of applying for EU membership was/is the Cyprus problem. Since 1974, noone cared about Cyprus and the fact that there is an occupying force on the island. It is evident perhaps much more to you than me, since currently I am not in Cyprus, that EU accesion has done more in the recent months to promote a solution to the Cyprus problem than all the combined efforts of the past 30 or so years. Furthermore accesion will quarantee a viable solution to the problem that does not violate the basic human rights such as the various plans proposed thus far.

I have to admit that Cyprus and the Cypriot people are poorly prepared for what comes with accession to the EU however it is a sacrifice we are willing to make. I am only 26 years old and did not go through the Turkish invation or the bicommunal fighting before that but I have served for 26 months in the national guard a significant portion of which was spend at the green line facing the Turkish forces all equiped with night vission scopes and two guards at each post 24/7 while we had just one and soldiers staying in without leave for almost a month straight. How do you feel when you have 40,000 strong arm military facing you,much more armored vehicles. We tried purchasing SAMs S-300 from Russia a purely defensive weapon and Turkey raised hell about it. The USA refuses to sell weapons to us because it does not promote the forever ongoing negotiations for the solution of the problem and sells a ton of weapons to Turkey and uses it to occupy Cyprus, kill a bunch of Kurdish civilians and violate the Greek airspace routinely by making claims that no international court would validate. Turkey has some serious problems and the US instead of promoting democracy encourages another soft coup because turkey did not grant it permission to invade Iraq from its soil.

Ofcourse who gives a **** about Cyprus, unless we help ourselves noone is going to help us.

[az]

Originally posted by Brian Ellis
I'm all for the EU where it can work and the people can afford to pay horrendous taxes to cover the enormous costs of conforming to all the 100,000-odd Directives and other regulations, at least half of which are stupid and are designed only to ensure bureaucrats remain in work.

This is the biggest problem for the EU and all its members, along with the idiotic agricultural subsidies which use ~50% of the total income. We need to overcome those two quickly, and make administration more swift and less blockade-able.

AZ

[Brian Ellis]

Haven't got time right now to respond, but it was really a toss-up whether accession would help or hinder a solution. I've been in Cyprus off and on since 1952, although I have spent many more years in Switzerland.

I'll reply in more detail tomorrow, but I fear that this is heading towards the Temp Forum :-)

[az]

ATM we're still very civilized in this thread

AZ

[Brian Ellis]

Originally posted by efty
I don't know for how long you have been in Cyprus but the main purpose of applying for EU membership was/is the Cyprus problem. Since 1974, noone cared about Cyprus and the fact that there is an occupying force on the island. It is evident perhaps much more to you than me, since currently I am not in Cyprus, that EU accesion has done more in the recent months to promote a solution to the Cyprus problem than all the combined efforts of the past 30 or so years. Furthermore accesion will quarantee a viable solution to the problem that does not violate the basic human rights such as the various plans proposed thus far.

...

Ofcourse who gives a **** about Cyprus, unless we help ourselves noone is going to help us.

On the whole, I agree with you.

RANT STARTS

Having been here in 1952/3 for 18 months, when it was paradise on earth and again in 1956/7 for several months on a mandate for my employers, when it was already paradise lost, the basic problem started undoubtedly with us Brits who did everything they could to split the communities. This culminated in 1959 with the Zurich agreement, which was catastrophic - and I said so at the time. The 1960 Independence resulted before any party was ready to face up to their responsibilities.

However, I must say that the events leading to the terrible 1974 events were fomented originally by the Greek junta with a totally predictable Turkish response. What sticks most in my craw was the way Kissinger alternately did nothing, then backed Turkey to the hilt. He alone, if he had shown willing, could have averted the crisis, but he sat on his fat arse, applauding Turkey and supplying them with arms to help their efforts, instead of doing his job to avert a belligerent act. Of course, without Kissinger's support, the UN was powerless to do anything, either, because this was in the Cold War era and vetoes flew around the SC faster than greased lightning.

Quite frankly, I don't see any improvement in relations between the various parties concerned today. Yes, for the first time since 1974, Cypriots of both communities can cross over the "Berlin Wall", but I see this as a very reluctant effort of Erdogan forcing Denktash's son (not Rauf) to take a measure or two. I believe that Cyprus' EU accession had little or nothing to do with it; OTOH, it is Turkey's bid to join the EU that may have forced Erdogan's hand to make a gesture.

Quite frankly, I've talked with many Cypriots (from both sides) and feelings have been very mixed. The Turkish Cypriots have welcomed the move more than the Greek Cypriots, on the whole (yes, of course, they have more to gain). But there is a large section of the population that has not lost its ability to promote petty squabbles. What I find telling is that almost a majority of Greek Cypriots who have crossed the border once or twice and most of those who haven't now consider it is treacherous to do so. The media do not help, exaggerating the importance of every hiccup, such as the Bishop of Morphou affair. However, the worst thing is that it has not been welcomed, at all, as an opportunity for further talks, by either side, both of which remain intransigently fixed to their original positions. Even worse, of course, is that each of the many political parties and the Church are using the events to further their individual petty squabbles between each other, rather than making a united effort. Of course, the Cypriot Church is no longer Autocephalous but is currently Acephalous so has lost a lot of its political power, which the Annan Plan would emasculate anyway. This is possibly a key part of the problem. Which flag do you see flying on churches? the Greek, rather than the Cypriot (in fact, this must be the only country in the world where you see more foreign flags than national ones!). And which flag does the average Cypriot hate to see? The Turkish one, of course.

In other words, to summarise, the situation arose because of British and American perceived interests in the Cold War period both before and after Independence. Since 1974, neither side has really made any efforts to make any positive steps to resolve the situation, despite the best efforts of outside powers, such as the UN and the EU, plus a lot of hypocritical double-talk coming from the USA and the UK. The Cypriots, from both communities, themselves need to get together and drop their childish partisanship and foreign affiliations, to discuss a way round the situation like mature people. The attitude that many have adopted that to spend money for a meal or a drink on "the other side" is a traitorous act is just one example of how petty some people can be.

My heart bleeds when I think back to my first visit here and realise just how Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots lived together, worked together and were happy together. Yes, a few young hotheads shouted, "Enosis", but no one took them very seriously, except the Brits who organised them to force the original split. And my heart bleeds when I think of the thousands of lives that have been lost and disrupted as a result.

RANT ENDS

So I do agree with your sentiment that "Of course, who gives a **** about Cyprus, unless we help ourselves no one is going to help us."

[Ssin]

Originally posted by efty
But is it occupation? The USA has bases all over the world and they are not considered occupying forces even though the people most of the times do not want them there.

If you're there with armed forces and you're not wanted, that's occupation.

[GNEP]

Thanks for taking the time to "rant" Brian - v interesting.

[GT98]

Originally posted by az
Oh, I re-read what you wrote and it at least makes sense now *LOL (I'm really too tired). I still don't understand your reasoning - why would germany be crying for the troops to come back?

AZ

Well say if you lived in Baumholder (I was stationed there back in 1995-1997) and owned a place of Business downtown. There is about 2000+ GIs not including families that live on post that do business with you. They go away...what happens? Your standard of living goes down since you have less customers. Its happened in other parts of Germany when the big draw down happened in the early 1990's after Desert Storm and there was alot of local Germans who where complaining when the US troops left.

After I think about it....I poorly worded it, since it sounds more extreme then what I was truely trying to say.