my first PAID programmer job!

[drslump]

Oh well, after all those years programming as a hobby for free, developing libraries nobody will use and all will criticise with emails like "your programing skills suck" or "I can't make your zip library open jpeg files" ... and eve some wise ass from SonicBlue (former S3) complaining about a patented algorithm of texture compression.

Finally I've got a project I'll be paid for, it's going to be developed in PHP/MySQL. It's for an computer/network intallator/repairer business. They need a program to organize and keep track of the repairs they do, as well as management of their clients and statistics about their employees. They need to generate PDF files of the reports too.

I've been a bit stupid, the boss was wishing to pay around $3000-$6000 for it. However I was such a dumb as to tell him before that it'll be about 40 hours of development and I put a price of only $13/hour so it'll be only about $500! That includes six months of maintenance of the program and adding of new features in that time!

I'll try to tell him that it's more complicated than I thought and I'll need to dedicate more hours to it, so hopefully I could arrive to the $1000.

Just if I knew he would pay easily $3000+ for it

so, what do you think of it? should I really try to push him for more money or you think that $500 is ok?

[GNEP]

Push for more money, or separate out the development and maintenance. Do the development to a fixed fee and the maintenance per hour.

Then put lots of bugs in your code so that the maintenance hours rack up like crazy

[Sasq]

drslump - pop into #murc for a bit

Dan

[drslump]

I've never used IRC but I'll give it a try Dan.

don't be hard on a irc virgin

ivan

[Kooldino]

Yeah, I've been in your situation before. Just say that you re-evaluated things and it's going to be more involved, etc etc, and ask for $4K.

[drslump]

They don't know anything about web development, so I can tell them that I can put some extras, like embedd graphics in the PDF, send automatic emails to customers, and some other easy stuff.
But I doubt he'd give $4k after I said I'll do it for $500
I'll give it a try and see how far I can push it, afterall I haven't signed anything yet so everything should be negotiable.

ivan

[Gurm]

Dude, he KNOWS he's taking advantage of you for $500. If they're in the PC repair business, they know how much custom web programming costs.

You can ask for whatever is fair.

Gurm_

[Fat Tone]

Slumpy - congrats on the contract. Treat yourself to a new Av

Any contract work I do I estimate the number of hours and charge a sensible market rate (say £30/hour, more if it is a unique skill - I know some obscure languages and equipment interfacing techniques).

If the job becomes bigger than first thought then they have to pay for the extra time. If you get it done quicker, then they don't need to know. When it comes to maintenance then I fix my mistakes for free. Any developments they have to pay for.

I hope you get the price up.

HTH

T.

[Marshmallowman]

Make sure you get a good a specification for the job as possible, that way when you have done the job, and they spring some BS on you like "it does not do this" you point at the spec and say...yeah it doesn't because you did not ask for it.

Keep the initial spec to ther basics, make sure they understand that once you get this first stage you can start adding and negotiating what "extras" they really need.

Also the cost of you computer and your development software is a large component of your development cost.

It also justifies asking for extra money to cover your costs for the inevitable "feature creep" that clients always start trying to sneak in.

Also get your estimate of how long it will take, then double it, and perhaps double it again to be sure...things never work out...and see "featutre creep"

Feature creep: the extra's the client slips in every time you talk to them...eg "oh and it has to do this as well"...

Well done and Good luck, you will find your new career both rewarding and mind numbing...sometimes

[cjolley]

Originally posted by Marshmallowman
Make sure you get a good a specification for the job as possible, that way when you have done the job, and they spring some BS on you like "it does not do this" you point at the spec and say...yeah it doesn't because you did not ask for it.

Keep the initial spec to ther basics, make sure they understand that once you get this first stage you can start adding and negotiating what "extras" they really need.

This is VERY good advice.
If you don't get good specs as to what is required in writing, you could wind up working for that $500 FOREVER.

Gee, we thought it would do x...
Oh, ok...
Gee, we thought it would do y....
Oh, um.., ok...
Gee, we thought it would do z...
Oh, um.. well....,, ok...

.....
Gee, we thought it would do z+...
F**k You!

Not professional, but it happens all the time.
chuck

PS Congratulations!

[KvHagedorn]

I think we saw something like this in Jurassic Park..

Since you screwed yourself with your negotiations, now you will have to figure out how to write your program to rip off the company somehow..

[drslump]

cheers for the advice guys!

I think I'll negotiate the money again, I mean, he knows $500 is very cheap. I'm thinking in doing it for $500 but he'll have to send me customers periodically. He started the bussiness one year ago and they are doing the computer/network maintenance of a dozen medium-sized bussiness around here. I've checked their web sites and they are pretty basic.
So the point is that if he promises me to tell his customers about upgrading their websites and he gives that job to me, I will work for him cheaper. This way I won't have to seek for customers.

Reading KvH's post has made me think. Would it be moral to hide some backdoors into the program, so if he doesn't pay me or something I could destroy their copy of the program?
Since I'm not signing any contract, if he doesn't pay me I can't complain to anybody

ciao, Ivan

[KvHagedorn]

If your opponent has no morals then you shouldn't either. They would be paying you something decent to begin with if they did, and you perhaps should have produced a contract asking for partial payment in advance.