Another devistating crime in the US!!!

[Sethos]

in defence of gun owners of the world (of which I'm not one...) it's not the guns that are killing people. It's the person holding the gun who's killing people. If this guy didn't use a gun he would have gone in there with a knife, or a grenade or some other impliment to kill those people. you can use just about anything as a weapon if you have to / need to. I mean look at 9-11 those guys used box openers, not you everyday weapon of choice, but it still killed the people effectivley. The point is, a person in their right mind wouldn't even think of killing another person under normal circumstances. These are just the times in which we live. I'm not saying that this guy was right, or should have had a gun or anything like that. but how could you predict that he'd do something like this...just another view

~Sethos

[Joel]

it's not the guns that are killing people. It's the person holding the gun who's killing people.

Bingo.

Joel

[Novdid]

What if that person doesn't have a gun to hold?

You can always run from a knife, dodging bullets can be more complicated.

[Brian Ellis]

Getting away from the point.

The "incident" in Chicago is another example that there appears to be a mindset in the US that dictates that people should be shot, for whatever reason, at the drop of a hat. It would seem likely that the per capita deaths (over many years) from gunshot wounds in the US are higher than in any other developed country, even by as much as an order of magnitude.

Why is this?

What can be done to stop this hecatomb?

Or are the advocates of firearms just shrugging their shoulders and saying it is the people-given right or prerogative for tens of thousands of people each year, many of whom are innocents, to be killed?

I'll be brutally frank. I, for one, simply do not understand why the people of the US tolerate this mass homicide. More innocent people are killed in any year from gunshot wounds than were killed on 11 September. Can anyone please enlighten me?

[Joel]

You can always run from a knife, dodging bullets can be more complicated.

That's why criminals won't confront someone they think is armed but take away the guns from the law abiding citizens and they then can have a hayday.

Joel

[KRSESQ]

The "incident" in Chicago is another example that there appears to be a mindset in the US that dictates that people should be shot, for whatever reason, at the drop of a hat.

One might get that impression if one were to rely solely on off-shore news accounts of gun crime in the US for one's information. In reality its an unfair stereotype of Americans as gun-toting cowboys and thugs who enjoy nothing more than throwing lead at each other. In reality the VAST majority of gun owners are at least intelligent enough to appreciate the awesome responsibility gun ownership demands. Even the dumbest redneck a**hole you'd ever bump into in a small-town bar on a saturday night knows enough not to go waving a gun around indiscriminately. And if he doesn't, he'll get smacked down pretty quick.

It's the brain-damaged whacks like the one in this article that you have to watch out for. The reason they're able to pull off stuff like this is that the average person (even hardcore gun-nuts) have a hard time comprehending that the guy they just fired might come back and start shooting the place up. And guys like this are dangerous with or without a gun.

As a wise man once said, "If you can understand people like that, then we have to start worrying about YOU."

Kevin

[Brian Ellis]

Kevin

OK, but why SO MANY deaths? All countries have whackos, but why SO MANY?

[KRSESQ]

If I knew the answer to that, I'd run for God. Every psychiatrist/psychologist/sociologist in the country has looked at the problem and every one of them has a different theory. But there has always been a lot of guns in the US throughout our history, and its only in the last half-century or so that the problem has really gotten out of hand. So most tend to blame the social changes our country has gone through in that time for at least part of the problem, with those feeling left out or left behind or otherwise disenfranchised causing the most trouble.

My pet theory is that there is getting to be just too damned many of us living together in unnatural concentrations (large cities) and in any concentrated population (of ANY animal species, really), you're naturally going to see an increase in random individual violence. This would account for why you see higher violence statistics for places like Chicago or Los Angeles, than you do for more sparcely populated areas like mine (cultural differences aside).

If this in fact the case, we can expect the problem to get progressively worse as our population increases, and more restrictive gun control laws will be simply treating a symptom while the disease progresses merrily along.

Kevin

[Joel]

Based on 1997 figures:

32,436 firearm related injury deaths in 1997 according to Brian / 267,636,000 population in 1997 according to US census = 0.012%

The figure does seem high when taken in and of itself but when applied to the overall population and a percentage is calculated it doesn't seem that high after all. You must remember that here in the US most of our states are larger than most of the European countries and we have 50 of them.

Joel

[KvHagedorn]

This issue is complex in the extreme, and as someone who has studied a lot of the history involved I think I can iron some of it out for everyone, since so many seem so confused at the apparent differences between "American" and "European" "culture." It will take time and work, though, and I will post it when I'm done. As usual, don't expect me to ignore the most important aspects just to be politically correct.

[Paddy]

KvH politically correct?????

[Strahd]

Originally posted by Joel
What it really boils down to is that those who have lived without guns all their lives can not understand why someone would want or need a gun while those who have live with guns all their lives can not understand why someone wouldn't want to have or need a gun.

Oh how true. Can't argue that no matter which side you are on.

Originally posted by Joel
These type of crimes do not happen as often as they seem based on the way the media plays them up but then again most of the media is owned by the liberals and gun control is one of their agenda factors. So they tend to play the hell out of things like this for their benefit.

But these crimes are some of the most horrific and therefore do merit the coverage they do get. At the risk of providing the suspect/defendant with his/her 15 minutes of fame.

[Strahd]

Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
In the US states that have concealed carry laws DO require classes in operation and the law itself. Before this can even happen in most states (remember the US is a Federation where the states rule over things not ordained as Federal in the constitution) a purchase permit is required with its own background and criminal checks before you can even BUY the handgun. To get a first hunting license in Michigan a certified safety class is also required.

Dr. Mordrid

Makes me think of that Simpsons episode when Marge joins the police academy and there's some psycho that joins the academy just to get a gun.

Wiggum: You don't get your police badge over night. It takes a solid weekend of training before you get that badge.
Psycho: When do we get the freakin' guns
Wiggum: Hey!! You don't get the gun until I get your name.

[Brian Ellis]

Originally posted by Joel
Based on 1997 figures:

32,436 firearm related injury deaths in 1997 according to Brian / 267,636,000 population in 1997 according to US census = 0.012%

England and Wales 495 Maximum firearm related deaths (see thread in Temp Forum how this figure is calculated, but it is probably very much too high)/52,041,916 (2001 census) = 0.000951% MAX

US rate = 12.6 times England/Wales rate

[dbdg]

Originally posted by Joel
That's why criminals won't confront someone they think is armed but take away the guns from the law abiding citizens and they then can have a hayday.

Joel

Very good point and I reckon it is too late for the US now but the thing is it should never have gotten to the point where what Joel said is true.

Because it is now too late it looks like over time it is just going to get worse and worse, nothing anyone can do about it anymore.