How the world works!

[TransformX]

Originally posted by rylan
I think Joel's post was much better

I agree.
Anyone could have made this father/child "chat" about *any* country.

q: were the nazis good ?
a: no, the nazis were the spawns of hell and hitler was the antichrist

q: so why did so many people collaborate with them ?
a: because you could either join them or be crushed by them

q: but as collaborators, those people did terrible things, sometimes worse than the nazis themselves. doesn't it make them as bad ?
a: ____________________ (fill petty excuse here)

q: but some people did join the resistance and saved countless people's lives:
a: well, you see - our country is full of good great people !

q: so why didn't the collaborators join the resistance too ?
a: ____________________ (fill petty excuse here)


Or maybe:

q: dad, you told me that conquest is bad, right ?
a: yes son

q: and colonialisation ?
a: it's completely different. people in colonies are free and happy

q: if they're free and happy, why do we have to keep armed forces there ?
a: to keep the order and the law ofcourse !

q: but the people at ________, _________ and _______ are not so happy and are fighting against our forces there...
a: no, they're just too stupid to know what's good for them.

Should I go on about the basques, kurds, taiwan, tibet etc. etc. etc. ?

[az]

And your point is? These are both completely correct. There is no excuse for being a Nazi, and conquest is conquest, whether you call it colonization or not, or you call the invaders settlers.

AZ

[TransformX]

I agree.

My point is that any country with any political system by definition is a criminal and illogical and thus such a silly script could be applied to.

History is full of "anti-christs", be it: GWB, Hitler, Saddam, Bin Laden, Napoleon, Atila the Hun, Stalin, King Leopold, Ariel Sharon, Augusto Pinochet, Ferdinand Marcos etc.
In many cases, one's saviour as another's disaster.

[az]

Yes. But can't people (those in power) do something for their people WITHOUT murdering others?

AZ

[TransformX]

Originally posted by az
Yes. But can't people (those in power) do something for their people WITHOUT murdering others?

AZ

Change the word "can't" to "won't" and the simple answer would be: NO.
The not so simple answer would be: Why would they ?

[az]

Because it isn't necessary to do so, causes loss and grief to your own people, and costs lots. If morale doesn't count. We learned the hard way here, and I'm sure the less civilized countries () will learn, too. I just fear what it would take to show them.

AZ

[TransformX]

AZ,

I don't believe human nature is evil or bad. Human nature is neutral. For every person choosing to be good, there's another choosing the evil path. The problem is that the evil path shows greater short term rewards that allows to do mor evil.
Add the fact that law isn't good not bad. Same as law isn't justice.

Just as a n example: A few months ago I heard on the news about a new immigrant from the eastern block that caught his wife and her lover at home, he threatened them with a large knife so they won't escape and called the police, who to his amazement released them both and arrested him.
According to religion and moral, what they (his wife and her lover) did was very very wrong, while all he did was to keep them there so the police could arrest them. According to the law, what he did was worse.

"Don't take the righteous path my son, it's too damn crowded..."

[Brian Ellis]

az

The BBC broadcast a report on the Mugabe family spending the other day. The only way that they could have the style of life they have is by oppression and corruption, as his salary as President of Zimbabwe is a mere £3,000 per year. With this, he is building a new private home, estimated to cost many millions.

Most Zimbabweans are aware of this situation but are powerless to do anything about it. Many minor opposition leaders have already been murdered or otherwise put hors de combat. The one major opponent is constantly harrassed and has his feet cut from under him, despite his widespread popular support. Mugabe is every bit as bad as Saddam was, yet he is tolerated by many countries.

He has been excluded from the current Commonwealth meeting, yet there is a strong movement to reinstate the bastard, especially from neighbouring countries, which are afraid of him.

So loss and grief continues. What I regret is the way that the international communities cannot find a way of ridding the world of murdering tyrants like him. Iraq has shown it cannot be done by force.

[TransformX]

Brian,

I think the greater question is: do the people really want to be "saved" ? Are they ready for the consenquences ?
Just like people talk about the state of women rights in Iran while ignoring the fact that no one other than the women themselves brought the revolution in Iran...

Just think about the people of Israel in Egypt, crying for god to save them. Once Moses came and actually saved their ass from the frying pan they started crying to him that he took them from the "meat pot" in Egypt to die in the desert.
No wonder he left all that generation to die in the desert.

[Brian Ellis]

Anan

I don't think that anyone would pretend it's easy. At least Moses was able to get the fourteen commandments from the mountain top, even though he managed to persuade God to drop four of them, so I suppose that some good can come from evil.

[TransformX]

The biggest problem is the 11th one, the one that let's you off the hook of all the other 10 (especially with the aid of the good lawyer) - "Thau shalt not get caught".

[TransformX]

By the way, there's a joke about the 10 commandments:

God had a tablet with 5 commandment which he tried to offer the different nations of the world.
He went to the French and told them about it, so they asked to know what's inside. "no adultry !? no way, that's not for us." said the French. And so god moved from one nation to another and each nation found something they didn't like. That is till god came to the Jews:
God: I have a tablet with 5 commandments to offer you
Jews: How much does it cost ?
God: Actually it's free
Jews: In this case, we'll take two.

[Brian Ellis]

Actually, my crack about the 14 less 4 is part of a joke: when Moses came down, he announced to the Children of Israel that he was able to get 4 knocked off, whereupon he was cheered. Then he said that adultery was still on, not negotiable, whereupon he was mobbed by the crowd and the tablets got broken over his head. That's why we don't have them today

[UtwigMU]

I know another version:

Moses comes down from the mountain, people eagerly expect what he has to say.

- I have some good news and some bad news.

- Good news is: I got him down to ten, bad news is, adultery is still in it.