This is awesome.

[Kruzin]

True. For many cultures, there would be no complete world today if the WW's had turned out differently.
The Nazis would have had power over the world, and your existance would have been wiped out by now.
But thanks to US participation, there is still a complete and diversified world today (as it should be) that would not exist if the nazis had won...

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by Kruzin
War can be a means to an end.
IOW, yes, violence may be involved as a means, but the end result is more peace than than before the war started.
The World Wars are a good example of this. Was there total peace after either war? No. Was it better than before the wars, or the alternative, if the 'bad guys' had won? Yes. Just imagine the world today if the nazis had won WWII...

umm.. depends on your point of view. In WW1, there WERE no "bad guys," just a bunch of idiots on both sides that let themselves get into a nasty mess. And if your "bad guys" had won that one, there would never have been a WW2.. Hitler would never have had an ear for his ideas.. indeed his ideas might have been different. Who knows?

[Umfriend]

Interesting point (albiet OT): What would have happened to Europe if the US had not joined and Germany and Austria had won the war? Would the state of Israel be in existence today? (I mean, the Ottomans would prolly still occupy that area, no?)

So I think I agree with KVH here to a large extent: WWI is not really a good example to justify violence. WWII could be, but it was started by the bad guys, so I'd like to think of the Allies as using violence in defence, not as an attack to gain more/better peace after the violence.

[UtwigMU]

I think WW1 should rightfully be won by Austro-Hungary and Germany and that US had no place interwening. Also IMO it would have been a lot better if nations of AH would be able to work out some agreement and had AH (an economic and cultural superpower) remained together it would benefit all nations.

Also Wilson had no right to offer parts of other states to other nations without asking the people (the case of western Slovenia and south Tyrol being promised to italy for entering entente in 1915). Had AH remained together, all Slovenians would still be living in one state.

BTW, battlefield result was strongly in favour of central powers at front with Italy - as soon as the central powers were able to equalize forces due to colapse of Russia, Italy was overrun.

Saddly nations didn't realize some of them had more rights in AH than latter (Yougoslavia, Bohemia Moravia during WW2, eastern block) and by being cut from European economic and cultural space for good part of century they declined in those areas.


Franz Josef Habsburg
Kaiser of Austria 1848-1916



big map

[Joel]

Whether y'all believe it or not guys I did not post this as a political statement. I posted it because of it's awesome art work. I don't really care if you agree with it or not.

If you wish to discuss the merits of war in the name of peace and freedom then please take it to the temp forum otherwise I will feel forced to delete my own post thus deleting all the other posts.

Joel

[TransformX]

Originally posted by Joel
Whether y'all believe it or not guys I did not post this as a political statement. I posted it because of it's awesome art work. I don't really care if you agree with it or not.

It's a more than impressive work, especially since it's on such a rough surface.

If you wish to discuss the merits of war in the name of peace and freedom then please take it to the temp forum otherwise I will feel forced to delete my own post thus deleting all the other posts.

Hehe

[Umfriend]

Sorry Joel.

As I said, it's an impressive paint job.