Evil Walmart?

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by MultimediaMan
You know KvH... people like you are called "Closet Aristocrats". You have this arrogant sense of superiority and riteousness that stinks up the forum. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Right, whatever. Being in Bentonville, you're probably just not used to people who think for themselves. I can understand that. Just remember I'm attacking your employer, not yourself or a family member.. maybe you need to get those implants removed before they utterly detroy your individuality.

You obviously don't care about saving money or giving everyone their fair shake.

Oh. Wal-Mart cares about saving people money? Really? How cynical of me to think this is not their real driving force. How odd that it cost me more to buy the same items at the local superwalmart than it had cost at the (now gone due to Wal-Mart's ruthless marketing) local KMart. Not only that, but it took forever to find them, too, since the damn place is so big and laid out in such an ungainly fashion. Furthermore, I had to buy Hefty bags, which cost quite a bit more, because there were no generic garbage bags to be found.

This whole "discussion" started with a half-assed article about how Wal-Mart does business that every other retailer in the U.S. does at some level or another. Including the mom and pop shop that sells Chinese-made portable Radios. When was last time you were able to BUY a U.S.-Built Portable Radio?

Bueller.....?

Bueller..........?

Is that Wal-Mart's fault? We weren't even a player in the top 100 when the last pocket Radio was made in the U.S.

Every retailer does it, and Wal-Mart gets singled out because we are the biggest. Mom and Pop are still the biggest overall, read on to find out why...

Does anyone even buy pocket radios anymore?

Stop talking about Mom and Pop like it's one unified entity that owns a whole town with little embassies representing its suppliers, whose ambassadors are there to be told what prices they are going to sell their wares for. Every other retailer does not do this. Why don't you pop your head out of Bentonville and see? That is, if that explosive collar will let you get that far away..

Retailers who see a Wal-Mart move in know they either have to compete or offer something Wal-Mart doesn't. And that's not hard to do. Since direct competition is not an option for most the retailers who have any business sense at all (Read: 99.9% of them.) know that they must change their business to the better alternative/higher-end (and higher markup) items that Wal-Mart doesn't offer, and change their business to tending to service-related needs for goods purchased at Wal-Mart: Computers, Mowers, TV, Microwave ovens, you name it. And for those customers wanting more than their Local Wal-Mart has to offer, these retailers are more than happy to satisfy that need.

These "Table Scraps", as you will no doubt call them, amount to billions of dollars in profit to small businesses.

Being in the real world that is the other side of this story, I can tell you that if there were not two large hospitals in this town, it would be 99% poor folks who could not afford high end anything, and there would be very few stores left other than grocery stores and cheesy restaurants. And if you honestly think anyone can make a decent living fixing all the crap you sell at Wal-Mart, you are living in a dream world.

You can't blame Wal-Mart for growing...even as big as we are we constitute less than 10% of all retail sales in the U.S.; even though we are the countries largest Grocer, we still sell less than 8% of all Groceries. Retailers that don't grow, die. Look at K-Mart, JCPenney, and Sears. Guess who constitutes the bulk of Retail? Mom and Pop. And don't tell me Mom and Pop shops start their people at $7.50 an hour part-time, or offers benefits...or stock ownership.

Again, who is this "Mom and Pop" corporation? They must be quite formidable if they constitute the "bulk of retail." Why don't you quote a real source that will confirm to me that sole proprietorships and limited partnerships actually do more than 50% of all retail sales in this country? I double dare you to find one.

Let me tell you something about the "Mom and Pop" shops you are talking about. These small businesses are (were) independent of corporate shenanigans.. ass-kissing and mind-numbing conformity is not the only way small business owners have of prospering and moving up in the world. The many of these who are dying out are (were) members of the middle class, and the average wage, if you include these owners, is (or has been) much higher than it is at Wal-Mart. Why? If you have several small shops in a smallish town which sell toys, fabrics, office supplies, groceries, pharmacy products, furniture, etc., and each of those has an independent owner, you have a good base of people who are comfortably within the middle class. When they all go out of business due to high-powered marketing from big corporations like Wal-Mart, There are maybe three or four people now (all managers at Wal-Mart) who are in the middle class in that town (and usually lower middle class.) Everyone else has to work hourly at Wal-Mart or find something else to do, if they can. The real money goes out of the town, into the pockets of the Waltons and those who got in on the ground floor of this pyramid scheme. It's so sad to walk into a Wal-Mart and see the elderly "greeters" who once had a real job, and who now just watch the door and have to pretend to be positive about life. God, the total denial the bulk of humanity in this country has to be in to live life as corporate serfs.

I remember a better time.. there were actually local drug stores and news dealers and toy stores when I was a child. People knew the owners.. went to church with them.. they were able to respect each other and be respected as independent businessmen. Now that world, that community, is gone. You have to be a corporate suck-up to get along in life, and nobody respects a suck-up, especially themselves.

You say retailers that don't grow, die? Perhaps cancer-like megacorp retailers that have to employ lots of marketing people and buy national television commercials and pay their CEO $17,690,000.00 per year have to grow.. let's see.. how do they do this? Well, they tell their stockholders that revenues are up, etc., so their stock price keeps climbing (WHY are they up? Because they have opened 60 new locations that year, and they have a CFO- making only a modest 7 figure salary- who's a damn good juggler.) We've noticed this in almost every big corporate retailer.. they keep opening locations until the capital runs out, and then they just implode or stagnate because they have run out of ideas, unless they can do the dance and cook the books like so many do.. it's easy when you're that big. On the other side of reality, I knew a couple of small town pharmacists who just kept running their one store until they got old and retired. They didn't have those huge expenses, just a local network of folks who knew who they were and went to them. They were people who maintained their dignity, too, because they never had to kiss corporate ass to remain employed.

Ever think about the people Wal-Mart employs? 1.413 Million of them, every one of them gets paid more than the "average" wage in their area. Personally, I was able to PURCHASE a new house and still have enough left over to cover my families needs, now and into the future. I am an hourly associate (though hopefully not for much longer: I'm itching for a salaried position).

If $7.50 an hour is more than the average wage, you just proved my point, bud. Wal-Mart "employs" 1.413 million SERFS! (Alright, perhaps only 1.4 million are serfs, the rest are managers who have proven themselves worthy as such by completely negating their own individuality and personality in order to toe the company line, and think in the way the corporation deems acceptable.. meaning not very much.) And to think that many of their parents and grandparents were able to be free from this kind of fascist system ruling their lives and livlihood. In that context, it is easy to see how we were such a strong country before around 1965. Now it amazes me that people can actually get out of bed in the morning.

As to your own position, MMM.. you work at corporate headquarters, do you not? I guess you aren't a checker in Hicksville, Tennessee who will never have much hope of being anything more, are you?

Now, to set the Record straight, regarding the Illegal Immigrant Contractor Issue, please note that we were cooperating with a Government investigation since 1998 that asked us to use these contractors as part of an ongoing investigation. The U.S. Attorney's Office has been very quiet lately about that issue, hasn't it? They screwed up, big time, and we know it.

Just goes to show that all the clueless crooks don't work in the corporate sector

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by schmosef
MultimediaMan makes my point. You can't blame Wal-Mart for working the system so successfully.

The fault lies with regulation and the regulators.

What Wal-Mart does is take the system to its logical extreme. Actually, I think that the real extreme (if you believe the proposition that Wal-Mart destroys its suppliers) would have Wal-Mart chewing up and spitting out every available supplier in any given category and then be forced to accept the whims of whomever stepped up to fill the void. In any case, the only solution is to change the laws. Wal-Mart is not going to change its business practices otherwise.

Personally, I envision something along the lines of: if you’re an American company selling to other American companies or to American consumers, a certain percentage of your product has to be sourced / manufactured in the USA. And if you’re a foreign company trying to sell in America, you should pay a surcharge to the US government in the form of an import tariff.

Wal-Mart would have to ensure that all it’s suppliers conformed to the rules, and each tier 1 supplier would have to keep their tier 2s, 3s, etc. in line.

I realise that this is overly simplistic and I can already envision a few flaws, but I offer it as a working model for change. Something also has to be worked in to factor the working conditions of off shore labour.

Lastly, I have to say that I totally disagree with KvH’s little rant. KvH, you speak like someone with high ideals, altruistic vision, and no real-world experience. That’s not the way the world works. You remind me of this coloured girl I knew who HATED Koreans because they owned all the liquor stores in Harlem. First, she was generalising. Second, she wasn’t laying blame where blame was / is due. Listen this is not a flame, instead of trying to flame me back, try explaining the viability of a retail business model that involves a company preaching to consumers "you don't want to buy something today, best keep your money in the bank so you can buy something from someone else tomorrow".

Bueller.....?

And what is your real-world experience, might I ask, that you offer this tidy economic thumbnail to cure all our ills? Mine comes from living in a town dominated by Wal-Mart, even though there are several other big corporate retailers here, and working as one of four (including the owner) people in a small retail business, as well as having worked for big corporations (and hating it thoroughly.) I also studied economics in college, so I am not a total ignoramus about the workings of such things.

I agree that the fault lies with the regulators, but it's a very difficult net to weave to make all parts of the economy work properly if we are just now going to start regulating it. It isn't a matter of just writing laws and enforcing them, it's implementing them at the right time and in the right way, and convincing people they are the right thing to do, while avoiding having the bill rewritten to the point where this delicate net is distorted out of all usefulness. In other words, it ain't happening, folks.. not the way things are set up in Washington right now, at least.

Lastly, why don't you explain the viability of that business model, since you (and not I) put forth the concept?

Bueller.....?

Bueller.....?

Bueller.....?

(I added the "Bueller"s, since you seemed to think it was so very clever, and somehow lent credibility to your point of view. )

[MultimediaMan]

Stop Lamenting the Past: there are a lot of things that were commonplace in 1965 that don't happen now. Like Lynchings, for instance. Not all that was, was pure and good. Then, as now, there are things that are wrong.

As far as thinking for myself, I've done so for 36 years, and will continue the practice for the rest of my days. Thinking and Reasoning are two different things KvH... you seem to be doing more of one than the other.

Things change, for good or bad, you can't blame the world for changing. You either adapt to the change or become extinct.

It's true not many people buy Pocket Radios anymore..they are buying MP3 Players with FM Radios built in; in droves, I might add ...and where are those made? Does it matter they were first invented in Taiwan? It does now!

See? Times change, but some things stay the same.

But you haven't figured that out have you? You can work for a big company and earn promotions and you can maintain your dignity doing it. How? Be yourself, and know yourself.

Cynics like you brood about things they think they understand, and project things as the way they think they should be rather than learning the way things truly are. Who's fooling whom here?

Working at Wal-Mart: What is wrong or demeaning about that? What is demeaning about earning a good living? What is wrong with making profit? What is wrong with bettering yourself? What is wrong with success?

Every town has garbage collectors, are you going to complain that they are exploited because they have a dirty job? What about ditchdiggers? They work, too, are they any less dignified because of it? What would the world be without them?

Working is not always fun, and if you work just to get paid, there's something wrong with you. You have to have the drive to excel. You must distinguish yourself, be it through innovation, brilliance or reliability in service. Some paths are faster than others. Some people are smarter than others, too.

In business as in life, you rise to the level of your own incompetence. You're about as high as you can go with that mindset.

And whether or not people are satisfied with their job is none of your damn business! And certainly not a measure by which to judge anyone, and yet you presume to think for all of them! It is one thing to consider another's position, but to judge someone by the places where they work and choose to do business!?

You see now why I called you a "Closet Aristocrat"? You think you're better. You think you're smarter. You've got it all figured out, don't you?

Damn you and your petulant ignorance!

Until you grow up and accept things as they are, you won't be able to change a thing. Right now you are about as powerless as powerless can be, and you don't even know it.

You think I agree with every decision my employer makes? Why do you think I want a promotion? I want to make a difference, sometimes those differences are worlds apart, sometimes they are infinitesimally small. Sometimes I am right, and sometimes I am wrong. I can live with that, I also learn from that. Sometimes I change my position, and sometimes my employer changes theirs. But I participate, and I'm better for it.

So sit there in you comfort zone, KvH. For every negative story you care to pull from the headlines, I can counter it with facts or 100 success stories. But that would be lost on you, and I would simply be wasting my time. I've got better things to do.

I am finished with this thread, and I shall be adding you, KvH, as the sole person on my ignore list on any of the dozen or so Forums I browse and participate in daily. It is plain you and I have nothing more to talk about in your present state of mind.

[schmosef]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn
And what is your real-world experience, might I ask, that you offer this tidy economic thumbnail to cure all our ills? Mine comes from living in a town dominated by Wal-Mart, even though there are several other big corporate retailers here, and working as one of four (including the owner) people in a small retail business, as well as having worked for big corporations (and hating it thoroughly.) I also studied economics in college, so I am not a total ignoramus about the workings of such things.

I agree that the fault lies with the regulators, but it's a very difficult net to weave to make all parts of the economy work properly if we are just now going to start regulating it. It isn't a matter of just writing laws and enforcing them, it's implementing them at the right time and in the right way, and convincing people they are the right thing to do, while avoiding having the bill rewritten to the point where this delicate net is distorted out of all usefulness. In other words, it ain't happening, folks.. not the way things are set up in Washington right now, at least.

Lastly, why don't you explain the viability of that business model, since you (and not I) put forth the concept?

Bueller.....?

Bueller.....?

Bueller.....?

(I added the "Bueller"s, since you seemed to think it was so very clever, and somehow lent credibility to your point of view. )

KvH, now you’re just being silly.

You agree that the solution is changing the regulation… but don’t think it can happen because it would be too “difficult”?

So you expect Wal-Mart to change the way it operates, just because?

I think maybe you should ask for a refund on those economics classes.

[Umfriend]

I wonder which economic classes would teach that regulations, restrictions rather, on trade are good?

[schmosef]

Hey I agree that freer trade is better trade. But have you seen how thick the NAFTA agreement is? And that’s just an example. Trade is already HEAVILY regulated. But the form of regulation needs to change to better serve the American people.

The reality is that American factories cannot compete with off shore factories where the standard of living is so much lower.

Here’s a little anecdote… A few years ago one of my customers moved manufacturing of a certain product from one of their Mexican factories to one in Canada. At a corporate level, the deal looked good on paper because of the difference in shipping costs from Canada versus Mexico. Everyone in the Canadian plant was excited about the # of jobs that would be created in the struggling Canadian plant. The Mexican factory had maintained really high quality standards and it was imperative that this not change after the move. A Canadian team of process engineers was sent down to Mexico to plan the migration and found that the Mexican line was running with roughly 5 times the amount of labour that they were supposed to. But it didn’t matter because they were paying the Mexican workers pennies on the dollar that they would have to pay Canadians or Americans. Further, the Mexicans had invested almost nothing in automation or safety so they didn’t have to amortize any expenses into the piece price. To compete, the Canadians had to bring in robots. To pay for (and justify) the robots, they had to cut the amount of jobs on the line by two thirds. And that’s based on how many people should have been on the line, not how many were there in Mexico. In the end, it took years for the Canadians to see actual profit, and only at a margin much less than what was already attainable in Mexico.

The playing field needs to be levelled. I’m not saying it would be easy. But if the Americans don’t do something, everyone is going to lose. Including the Mexican workers who will never otherwise see their standard of living improve.

[Umfriend]

OK, I don't know anything about wal-mart or moms-and-pop shops (what are those??), but when it comes to regulating international trade, especially "protecting" domestic producers against cheap foreign labour often portrayed as producing lower quality goods, I'd like to say this:

Free international trade is good. It is good for everybody. There may be some caveats, like not using child-labour, but most can be easily solved and it is often quesitonable whether the cure is worse than the sickness.

Let me give you an anecdote... WHen I grew up, my mother was raising us on welfare. That means different standards of living in different countries, but relatively, we were poor. We had food on the table almost always and a roof, but a lot of things we lacked. In those days (say late 70's) durable goods were very expensive. I'm talking bycilces, tv's, refrigirators etc. Back then, almost all of it was produced either domestically or in rather equally rich, or high wage, countries. Back then there was no choice of picking cheap chinese brands from a supermarket over buying a decent Dutch made bike from the local bike store. There were no cheap chinese bikes.

Now, I'll buy a decent bike over a C-brand one, but now I'm rich. The fact that "poor" people can afford cheap durable goods produced in low wage countries adds to their welfare considerable. Moreover, it adds to the wealth of the labourers in those low wage countries as well. In those days, a DVD player would ALWAYS have been a lot of money for rich people. I can now buy either a Denon DVD-2900 at euro 1,100, which is a shitload of money, or I can buy one for as little as euro 100. Class D brand, lesser quality and likely less durable? Sure. But the option is there. In fact, we should, and I am, grateful for the competition that causes prices to decline. It's not about how much I make, it's about what I can afford with whatever I make that counts. Tell me, why would I have to be forced to buy expensive produce due to high wages when others are begging to work for me for a fraction of it? How is it justifiable that we exclude someone from making a living in his own country when he does it for less, including shipping even?

Your anecdote shows what exactly? That your company did not know their ****ole form their ellbow? They were ignorant on the way they themselves ran their production in Mexico, made wrong assumptions as a result of that and found they could not compete in Canada? Tuff shit, they'll die (economically speaking).

Including the Mexican workers who will never otherwise see their standard of living improve.

Right. So either we force low wage countries to pay wages on par with ours or we limit trade? That is bound to increase their standard of living, right.

Trade is heavily regulated indeed. It's becoming less so very very slowly, and NAFTA is a good example. It allows for MORE trade, even though the agreement has shitloads of rules. Sound contradictory? One simple rule "Though shall not trade internationally" stops all and thus is the most restrictive, not allowing, even if the rule book becomes way way thinner.

I'll tell ya, opening trade will raise standard of living in poor countries pretty fast. We just need to sit out the ride until they join us. In the meantime, we might as well look at the distribution of income we do make, lots to be gained there.

[Umfriend]

Imagining this pertains to big chains vs small local stores debate: A local store here is offering the Denon DVD-2900 at euro 1,379. Aside from a brief chat of about 15 minutes, I needed no service from them (not that the answers I got were really good anyway). I called him the next day that I was going to buy one, but that his price was just not competitive enough.

I know I can't expect him to be as cheap as any online-shop, and I did not want that. But here is what I did after the guy basically gave me the finger in a unpleasant way:
I ordered the Denon DVD-2900 AND a Denon TU-1500RD which including shiping sets me back euro 1,265.

That's euro 114 and a Tuner difference.....good gracious!

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by Umfriend
Imagining this pertains to big chains vs small local stores debate: A local store here is offering the Denon DVD-2900 at euro 1,379. Aside from a brief chat of about 15 minutes, I needed no service from them (not that the answers I got were really good anyway). I called him the next day that I was going to buy one, but that his price was just not competitive enough.

I know I can't expect him to be as cheap as any online-shop, and I did not want that. But here is what I did after the guy basically gave me the finger in a unpleasant way:
I ordered the Denon DVD-2900 AND a Denon TU-1500RD which including shiping sets me back euro 1,265.

That's euro 114 and a Tuner difference.....good gracious!

and maybe no warranty.

And if you ever need service from that local shop I'm sure they will be ever so eager to provide it for you.

I would have made you a deal, but I doubt it would have been anything approaching the online "deal." Most people who entertain the idea of shopping online for such things expect nothing less than a 1 for 1 price match, and if they DO buy it online, those people aren't out even that 15 minutes of advice either way. Some yokel in a warehouse gets a ship order and off it goes.. that is, if they actually HAVE the piece advertised. Most of these online people don't have everything they advertise, and will try to get what you order from one of their shady dealers.

Why don't you check out this link.. and hope you never have a problem with the unit.

[Umfriend]

Thx for the link, I'll be sure to check out warranty (althoug the e-store sates that I will enjoy valid factory guarantee).

I'm prepared to pay for service, but this is too much. To make that thing region-free they wanted euro 90,- ???!?

When I asked if I could bring my amp and speakers (explicitly not on a saturday) so I could lsiten in Stereo set-up, the guy went whining he'd have to change all the settings on these DVD players...... I TOLD him I would be 2.0 only, so why would I want to listen to HIS 5.1 setup?

Anyway, almost 400 euro's on a 1400 machine goed a long way in covering risks of e-purchase IMO.

[KvHagedorn]

You are a financial advisor, are you not? Would you sit down with someone for even 15 minutes and offer financial advice for free, knowing that they will just go home and trade via their online account? If you would not do this, why not? It's exactly what you expect from that audio retailer.

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by Umfriend
Thx for the link, I'll be sure to check out warranty (althoug the e-store sates that I will enjoy valid factory guarantee).

Of course they do. And where will they be when you actually need service? If they still exist, you will have to send the thing in and fight with the service people yourself.

I'm prepared to pay for service, but this is too much. To make that thing region-free they wanted euro 90,- ???!?

Do you even know what this entails on that piece of equipment? (Not being in Europe, this never comes up here.) The guy would probably have to do it himself on his own time, and you just robbed him of his commission for selling it.

When I asked if I could bring my amp and speakers (explicitly not on a saturday) so I could lsiten in Stereo set-up, the guy went whining he'd have to change all the settings on these DVD players...... I TOLD him I would be 2.0 only, so why would I want to listen to HIS 5.1 setup?

Why on Earth do you feel the need to do this? I would find any excuse to keep you from coming in and wasting my whole day on this pointless maneuver myself. I would tell you to take it home and try it out. I might even come out and help you set it up if you were not being such a penis over the price, as rich as you admittedly are.

Anyway, almost 400 euro's on a 1400 machine goed a long way in covering risks of e-purchase IMO.

Being in this business as long as I have been, I could see myself wanting to be rid of you after 5 minutes, much less 15. Knowing you, you probably stood there arguing with the guy about every sort of little pointless thing, as though he was actually there for the "intellectual stimulation" of your inane babble. Then you want to waste his whole day setting up your own amp and speakers and then match some e-tailer price? I would have thrown you out too.

[Umfriend]

Of course they do. And where will they be when you actually need service? If they still exist, you will have to send the thing in and fight with the service people yourself.

All true. Not sure the local store will be around by then either, who knows? I know it's more likely, but still.

Do you even know what this entails on that piece of equipment? (Not being in Europe, this never comes up here.) The guy would probably have to do it himself on his own time, and you just robbed him of his commission for selling it.

Apparantly, and I found out after I told the guy goodbye today over the phone, it takes:
1. Downlaod a firmware file
2.Write it to CD
3. Insert CD-rom, turn the DVD player off, insert CD_rom and you are there. Morover, the guy did not volunteer I could easily do it myself. This is US$110 man! Yeah, he'd do it in his own time and avoid taxes as well. Assuming he sold this device a couple of times already, he may have the CD in place already or else it'd sure make it easy for him to advertise this to future customers.

Why on Earth do you feel the need to do this?

At that time I was still in doubt on whether I would buy a modded-Phiplips 963SA or one of the Denon line, 2200 or 2900, why? Because there was a big difference in price and I'd like to have the idea that I can make a decent decision, in this cause on sound vs price.

I would find any excuse to keep you from coming in and wasting my whole day on this pointless maneuver myself. I would tell you to take it home and try it out. I might even come out and help you set it up if you were not being such a penis over the price, as rich as you admittedly are.

Oh man, if ONLY he told me yesterday when I was at his shop: "Don't bother. Take two models with you, pay for them now and play with them for a week. Whichever suits best you keep and the other you get a refund". It would have saved him a "whole day", it would have saved ME a lot of trouble. No such offer was volunteerd AT ALL. I once suggested in a similar local shop something like this exacly. No way, they expect you to listen over there in the shop with their equipment, buy something (anything) and sod off!

When I was in his shop, I knew I could get it better priced. I never mentioned price during my visit ever. Had the guy made the same offer as you suggested, he'd have sold it to me at his price, no question asked. Instead, listening at his place was a heavy burden apparantly already.

Yeah, I then did wonder, if I should not take the gamble and buy it online. That savings put it halfway his price on the 2900 and the 2200. I looked around a bit more and found it cheaper still. Reviews were raving on both the modded Philips and the Denon, but with the Denon being quite a bit more expensive, especially in this shop, I gethered it would simply outclass the Philips. I will never know whether the difference is worth the money, but as the difference is only 300 euro now instead of 650, I'll take the bet.

Penis? Rich? Yeah tell me, how rich exactly am I? How rich should one be to simply spend US$ 500 extra on a US$1,250 machine huh? , I consider myself rich indeed. I need to work for a living though and 400 (that is US$ 500 nowadays) goes a long way....

Y'a know? It could be this is a case of a bad shop as well or the guy having a bad day. I don't have to put up with that just like that.

DOn't get judgemental on me like this, it's unbecoming. I don't deserve it. I don't feel like defending my behaviour against accusations of someone who does not know what went on. You don't know how rich I am, how much I do or should care about $500 for a $1,250 device or what took 15 minutes to discuss.

[KvHagedorn]

You're right, I don't know what went on. That guy might have been a dick, and I'm sorry I jumped to conclusions. Most internet-savvy younger people I have met in my store tend to not care too much about anything BUT price, though, so all I am saying is look, there's a difference between maintaining a shop where you can come in and listen to stuff or take it home and bring it back, have a guy come out to your house if need be, take time helping you choose your component, etc. and a web page where you enter the number "1" and buy. Why would anyone provide these services if they go unappreciated? Just remember, I am most definitely NOT rich, and I am on the other side of this story from you. The only thing that tells me that you are rich is what you wrote elsewhere here that I remember reading. I also thought I remembered you saying you were in financial services, so did that analogy shed any light on the matter?

Sorry I called you a penis, though.

[Umfriend]

Thx KvH, we're clear on this now. You got me all upset like as in "Shit, KvH thinks I'm an a$$hole"

I agree there is a difference. I did not need the guy to come down all the way just for that reason. He could have sold it to me at quite a bit more (1,250 was my target) when the lowest I had found was 1,079. And when I made the call today, I told him I would forego a listening excersize before I started hagling.

I am positively sure you would have had a sell with me.

BTW, thx again for the Denon link. I checked with my supplier and although they do stuff with serial no's on some brands, they told me they did not do that with Denon. Thx again. Too bad you don;t live in communist Netherlands, you'd have a sell and I'd be happy.