German cannibal gets only 8.5 years (!!??)

[az]

KvH, if suicide really is a sin (which I cannot judge, but decided for myself - being agnostic - that it isn't), what is your problem? He WILL be punished in the afterlife for sure. Who are WE to judge what he does to himself?

AZ

[KvHagedorn]

The problem is that society needs to see it for what it is.. I can understand when people feel constrained by what you might call the heavy handed dogmatism of the church, but to reject everything is, to use a common euphemism, like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If you want to distance yourself from religion, then call it "wrong" instead of "sin," but please don't let it become thought of as being "OK" in any way. Suppose someone close to you were to take his/her own life. Would you be hurt? Would your world fall apart? You bet it would. You see, people hurt much more than themselves when this happens. Even this weirdo may have had something positive to offer society. He might have had no friends or family, but he was certainly somebody's son, probably had a job where he contributed something positive, etc. To utterly negate oneself by suicide is a horrible, horrific thing.

When you say "Who are WE to judge.." you must understand that as members of society, we MUST judge.. we MUST decide what is right or wrong for ourselves and for those who might be influenced by what we think and feel, if it is well reasoned and from the heart. Some might consider God to be the final judge and arbiter, but he gave us minds to think and, yes, to judge with. Indeed, it is our responsibility to judge, and we do so each day without even thinking about it: Should I cross now? No, that bus is coming too fast.. Every day we make hundreds of decisions based upon what we believe to be right or wrong. Our judgement must be strong if we are to maintain a civilised society.

[paulcs]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn
The problem is that society needs to see it for what it is.. I can understand when people feel constrained by what you might call the heavy handed dogmatism of the church, but to reject everything is, to use a common euphemism, like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If you want to distance yourself from religion, then call it "wrong" instead of "sin," but please don't let it become thought of as being "OK" in any way. Suppose someone close to you were to take his/her own life. Would you be hurt? Would your world fall apart? You bet it would. You see, people hurt much more than themselves when this happens. Even this weirdo may have had something positive to offer society. He might have had no friends or family, but he was certainly somebody's son, probably had a job where he contributed something positive, etc. To utterly negate oneself by suicide is a horrible, horrific thing.

When you say "Who are WE to judge.." you must understand that as members of society, we MUST judge.. we MUST decide what is right or wrong for ourselves and for those who might be influenced by what we think and feel, if it is well reasoned and from the heart. Some might consider God to be the final judge and arbiter, but he gave us minds to think and, yes, to judge with. Indeed, it is our responsibility to judge, and we do so each day without even thinking about it: Should I cross now? No, that bus is coming too fast.. Every day we make hundreds of decisions based upon what we believe to be right or wrong. Our judgement must be strong if we are to maintain a civilised society.

You've brought up God a lot, but you don't specify which god. The Christian god said nothing on the subject. The Old Testament God of the Covenant was pretty fuzzy on suicide. From what I understand, the early Christians used pagan sources almost exclusively when rationalizing the prohibition of suicide. If you really want a diety's opinion on suicide, your best bet will be the gods of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

You seemed to dismiss the idea of martyrdom as suicide, but from what I understand, the early church did not. Certainly, the church considered many martyrs to be legitimate and held them in the greatest esteem. I've read, however, that people believed martyrdom was a one-way ticket to heaven, and they actually went out of their way to get martyred. The church leadership was rightfully concerned, and they began looking for a way to ban the practice of intentionally getting oneself killed. Again, they had to go to pagan sources to come up with the rationale.

I believe that St. Augustine was responsible for the actual codification of the prohibition against suicide. (If anyone knows anything more on this, please feel free to correct me.) Augustine, who was responsible for many of the "extracurricular" Christian rules and regulations, thought only Samson's suicide was not a sin. God must feel the same way, because Augustine spent a whole lot of time making up God's mind for him.

As far as I can tell, suicide is a sin because

a) it offended Zeus's sensibilities. (Hey Sylvia Plath! Look out for that lightning bolt!)

b) a bunch of 2nd and 3rd Century nuts would find the nearest centurian, stomp on his foot, and shout, "Hey buckethead! I'm a Christian and Caesar is a big fat wienie! Kill me now and send me to my well-deserved, eternal salvation!"

c) St. Augustine said so (making exception for Samson and his biblical bad hair day), and what St. Augustine said, goes.

I just don't buy suicide as a sin. How it got that way is just too well documented. I knew three people who committed suicide, and I didn't judge any of them. I'm an agnostic, but I certainly don't believe they deserve hell. I suspect they had enough of that while they were alive.

Paul

[GuchiGuh]

Originally posted by az
And honestly, I can't see your system working any better.

AZ

Agree with Az here.

[KvHagedorn]

The Christian god said nothing on the subject. The Old Testament God of the Covenant was pretty fuzzy on suicide.

First of all, they are the same being, secondly, here it is, the point I already made, since you seem unable to see well..

THOU SHALT NOT DO MURDER

Do you define suicide in any other way than as the murder of oneself?

Challenging someone as the martyrs did in defense of their religion is not "murdering oneself."

Why do I have to repeat myself here? Read the original post. I addressed all your "arguments" there.

I just don't buy suicide as a sin. How it got that way is just too well documented. I knew three people who committed suicide, and I didn't judge any of them. I'm an agnostic, but I certainly don't believe they deserve hell. I suspect they had enough of that while they were alive.

You sound like another disaffected Catholic. I don't know about current Catholic dogma on the subject but here is my own AGAIN, SINCE YOU DIDNT BOTHER TO READ MY EARLIER POSTS, it IS wrong to kill oneself, it IS murder, and I honestly fear for the judgement of those of you who seek to characterize it as something else. Whether and to what extent God chooses to punish this sin is his own business.. it isn't up to the nuns or the priests or the Pope to say.

Sorry I got so upset, but if you want to argue with me, please do me the courtesy of listening to what I have to say first. Then perhaps you will argue the points I have made. It upsets me that you infer that I am merely parroting someone else's dogma.

[Brian Ellis]

KvH

Please credit other people with enough sense not to have to subscribe to your distorted dogmatism. We are each entitled to our own views, which can be interpretations of the same sources as you use.

To give you an idea of the complexity of interpretation, Moses ben Maimon spent all his adult life trying to interpret Jewish oral and written law in the 12th c. In his Dalālat al-hā'irin and Mishne Torah, he codified his interpretation of the law. He said that neither wisdom nor life can be ascribed to God. He also decreed that the laws and religion as instituted by Moses are intended not only to ensure the bodily welfare and safety of the members of the community but also to facilitate the attainment of intellectual truths by individuals gifted enough to uncover the various hints embodied in religious laws and practices. This does not mean that all the beliefs inculcated by Judaism are true. Some indeed express philosophical truths, although in an inaccurate way, in a language suited to the intellectual capacity of the common people, who in general cannot grasp the import of the dogmas they are required to profess. Other beliefs, however, are false but necessary for the preservation of a public order upholding justice—e.g., the belief that God is angry with wrongdoers. This is in stark contrast to your very literal interpretation of the very same Mosaic "Thou shalt not kill". Interestingly, I cannot recall any teaching of his on suicide, perhaps some of the Jews on this forum may correct me.

And I'm not a disaffected Catholic. I was brought up in a strict Presbyterian environment (Scotland before the war held very fundamentalist Calvinist views, thanks to John Knox - did you know it was sinful on Sundays to draw your curtains back, because it was work?). However, I have read fairly widely of some of the great philosophers and teachers of many faiths. As a result, I cannot ascribe to any single dogma and least of all the literal interpretation of the Torah, including the Mosaic commandments. My God is a much more loving God, than the one revealed in the OT, but I do not hold Him in the anthropomorphic view of a geezer with a white beard pointing at suicides and condemning their souls to eternal damnation, hellfire and brimstone. In fact, sin against God is possibly paradoxal; sin is something Man has invented to regulate his behaviour with his fellows.

I agree that suicide may have far-reaching negative effects on people close to the victim, but so can any death, but so can many other things, whether classified as sinful by a dogmatic church, synagogue, temple, mosque or not. Do you believe that the families of the victims of yesterday's accident at the Hadj are any less distraught because they were throwing stones at a pillar, than they would have been had they fallen off a cliff or thrown themselves off a cliff?

[DukeP]

Well Said!

That aside, what a can of worms here...

Truly a place RIPE for fishing (or is that trolling?).



~~DukeP~~

[UtwigMU]

What I can't understand is in USA there are so manny pro life people who are against abortion, suicide, assisted suicide, yet they are pro capital punishment.

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by UtwigMU
What I can't understand is in USA there are so manny pro life people who are against abortion, suicide, assisted suicide, yet they are pro capital punishment.

Yeah, how could any right-thinking person be against killing innocent babies, yet actually advocate executing violent criminals? Stupid Americans.

[Wulfman]

Originally posted by KvHagedorn
Yeah, how could any right-thinking person be against killing innocent babies, yet actually advocate executing violent criminals?

so you would prevent a murderer from killing himself in a cell because it would be a sin to lead him later into the deathchamber.

mfg
wulfman

[DukeP]

Heh.
I think the definition of innocence need to be clarified.

A person/object that doesnt do ANYTHING isnt innocent.
Not doing Anything is a sin, right?

So no unborn baby is innocent.

To be innocent, one has to abstain from doing things that are bad - while doing things that are good.

A rock isnt innocent, neither is a person that doesnt do anything with his/her life.

Anyhow, I kind of loathe all this good/bad thingy.
Its not a matter of wheter you do things that are good or bad, but wheter you do things that are important at large.

It does matter wheter you do things that influence the world in a way that moves it. Im talking about Entrophy and Syntrophy here.
Anything that strives to reduce entrophy, is doing something important.
Why? Because you either do something - or you might as well not have existed. Entrophy happens on it own.
If your a worthless lowlife killer - your next target will die anyhow. You might as well not.
If you a worthless whitecollar paperpusher - going to work everyday, never striving for perfection - you might as well not.

If, on the other hand:
Your an aspiring artist, performing lyrics and music that moves the edge of your art - THEN you are doing something, that wouldnt have been done without you.
Your a policeman, striving for the society, arresting worthless killers.
Your an inventor, moving ahead of the crowd, bettering the opportunities of your fellow man.
Adventurer, going places that people never dreamt about - and lecturing them when you return, sowing seeds of desire and the will to be different.

Im sure You all get the idea.
Humans are afaik the only thing in the world that have the ability to fight against the rules of thermodynamics, the oppresion of the natural law of less to less.
People are only truly human, when they persue that ability.

As for the rest?
Thats just a piece of lowland narcissism "Your ok, Im ok, Were ok". Nope Were not.

~~DukeP~~

[Wulfman]

Humans are afaik the only thing in the world that have the ability to fight against the rules of thermodynamics,

every single living organism, from bacteria and cockroaches to humans, is struggling with thermodynamics at every moment. humans are therefor not the only ones fighting thermodynamics, every living system does. by keeping themselves "in order", by organising their surroundings (buildings nests,..) and not at last by reproducing: putting ordinary matter into the amazing form of an autopoietic network.
living stuff doesn't decay until it is dead because of the fact that "it is alive". death is the point where thermodynamics overwhelms life, therefor increasing entropy. a living organism per se represents an extremly high state of order with the tendency to break of if nothing is done.

schrödinger was going even a step farther: he said that life creates/has to create disorder around it to keep its own order up.

so if you want to lower entropy in the world, suicide might be after all an suitable option. but that would mean that you would lose your own low entropy. stuck between a rock and hard place...

mfg
wulfman

[Technoid]

Saw in the papers that a movie was in the works

Hugh Grant aparantly wants to eat Brad Pitt onscrean

[GuchiGuh]

....have you guys finished arguing? can i finish my lunch now?

[DukeP]

...Finish your lunch??


That kind of depends on what your eating!!!



~~DukeP~~