German cannibal gets only 8.5 years (!!??)

[GuchiGuh]

I've lost my appeite...

[GuchiGuh]

I spelled that wrong didn't I.....

[Umfriend]

KVH, I appreciate a lot of the points your making. Given that I am sort of an atheist, obviously, I don't attach to much weight to any of the Testaments. I do have one question though:
When you say that the OT says "Thou shalt not do murder" and then ask whether suicide is not anything different from doing murder of oneself, would it not be more correct to say that suicide is the same as _killing_ onself? Murder is the unlawful killing of one human by another (America Heritage Dictionary), which I think negates this specific argument of yours in two ways:
(1) It is not said in the OT that suicide is unlawful (unless you'd stick to your interpretation that murder can be done on oneself by onself), and
(2) According to the dictionary, it pertains to an action of one onto another person, not themselves.

The point is, that I am not at all convinced that the "thou shalt not do murder" was intended to pertain to killing oneself.

Of course, a true translation may prove either of us wrong. Not that'd I care on anything in the testaments per se.

[Brian Ellis]

Umf

Actually, where did KvH get his "Thou shalt not do murder"? The nearest I could find was "Thou shalt do no murder" from the Church of England Book of Common Prayer, which has distorted many things. The King James v. of Exodus ch. 20 goes a lot farther with a succinct: "Thou shalt not kill". It gives no contextual help as to WHAT thou shalt not kill. More important, it doesn't say what you can kill.

I'm quite willing to believe that the Hebrew original may have said something more explicit and that the meaning of the Hebrew word that was translated as 'kill' actually meant a lot different thousands of years ago than it did in the 17th c. or today (yes, the value of words do change). Now, many Hebrew (of all faiths) scholars and philosophers have spent hundreds of man-years trying to interpret Exodus.

Lacking this knowledge, my interpretation is simple. Thou shalt not kill other persons for any reason, including:
- jealousy
- greed
- hatred
- revenge
- sacrifice
- punishment
- war (which is only an extension of one or more of the above)
(list non-exhaustive)

However, I do not include suicide in the list because it is a special case, already discussed here, and that none of the Hebrew scholars that I have read have made this interpretation of the commandment.

I know some people have included animals into the "thou shalt not kill" list, but I do not subscribe to that because comparative anatomy has clearly shown that man was not designed to be herbivorous - and I like a nice piece of blue rumpsteak Interestingly, I have two vegan friends, both in their mid-60s and neither is in brilliant general health. Whether it is possible to ascribe this to their peculiar diet is impossible to say, but to look at them, you would say they were 10 years older than they are.

[Umfriend]

Brian,

Given the weight I attach to those books, I really can't answer where he got it from, I just assumed it was an exact quote, and thought about "murder" vs "kill".

Looking at www.bible.org, it says "You shall not murder", but the notes also mention "Thou Shalt Not Kill". The notes also exlain the verb rasah as the premeditated or accidental taking of the life of another human being.

Anyway, may grandfather and grandmother (mothers' side) were/are vegetarians (grandmother after age of 26 or so). Granpa reached 92.5 years exactly. Granma is alive and kicking at almost 90. Mother, being a vegetarian out of custom only, is in good health at 59 and could get any bloke she'd like

[KvHagedorn]

I suppose if you reject God and logic, then you might as well reject what I am saying.

I used the Ten Commandments because they are the basis for modern morality, ours being a culture adapted to Christianity over many centuries. I am not God, nor do I pretend to be. If you really believe murder is a sin and suicide is not, than why don't you go jump off a cliff and experiment? Won't you be surprised if there is a God and he tells you I had it right all along? It is truly dumbfounding that an honest person could so differentiate murder from suicide as many of you seem to be doing. Furthermore, your real basis for doing this is abundantly clear. Most of you are math and science people (perhaps Brian E. and a few others are exceptions), and do not seem to think too deeply about moral or humanistic issues, other than to echo the current trends in popular thought (an oxymoron if ever there was one, and Duke will agree.) Popular thought in Western Europe over the past (very) few years has been that God is a fairy tale, that euthanasia is perfectly OK, that gay marriage is a good thing, that if you smoke enough weed, all your problems will just go away and everything will be OK, etc. etc. In other words, the total secularization and equivocation of morality, dictated by whatever interest group gets up and expresses their desires, often having something to do with traditional morality not allowing them to do whatever hedonistic or self-serving thing they want to do, so God and traditional morality must be wrong, and who cares because God doesn't even exist.. we are atheists and damn proud of it!

Here you go, Umf. If you don't get it this time, I will assume that you are just arguing because you find it fun, and not seeking any real enlightenment from the process.

Given that I am sort of an atheist, obviously, I don't attach to much weight to any of the Testaments.

Sort of? You either are or you are not. If you aren't sure, you are an agnostic. But if you don't attach much weight to the testaments, I suppose there is no such thing as sin to you, so why even argue about it? Ah, the definition..

When you say that the OT says "Thou shalt not do murder" and then ask whether suicide is not anything different from doing murder of oneself, would it not be more correct to say that suicide is the same as _killing_ onself?

Actually, Brian found the correct wording, and it's meaning is the same as mine, though I remembered it inexactly. Here are five translations for you:

King James: Thou shalt not kill.
Modern Language: You shall not murder!
Living Bible: You must not murder.
Revised Standard: You shall not kill.
New International: You shall not murder.

Pretty simple, huh? Actually, the word "kill" was replaced with the word "murder" supposedly as a clarification of the original text, to differentiate its true meaning from the killing of livestock for food or executing people for crimes. Now we just have to agree that suicide is a subset of murder (helps when we use mathematical language? )

Murder is the unlawful killing of one human by another (America Heritage Dictionary), which I think negates this specific argument of yours in two ways:
(1) It is not said in the OT that suicide is unlawful (unless you'd stick to your interpretation that murder can be done on oneself by onself), and
(2) According to the dictionary, it pertains to an action of one onto another person, not themselves.

So you do not accept the testaments for what reason? Yet you seem to have blindly put your faith in another book which does not even pretend to be written by God, and which, to people who know English dictionaries, is by far one of the most laughably poor ones to be had. Here is what more reputable dictionaries define as murder:

Oxford English Dictionary:
v1. trans. To kill (a human being) unlawfully with malice aforethought; in early use, often with the additional notion of concealment of the offense; to kill wickedly, inhumanly, or barbarously.

Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition:
v.t.1. To kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice, or willfully, deliberately, and unlawfully.

I suppose it would be nothing to you or most atheists, though, to inject even more moral equivocation into statutes and make this definition obsolete by making suicide lawful.

Here are the definitions and etymologies for suicide

Oxford English Dictionary:
L. sui, of oneself + -cide, cutting, killing, slaying.
n The or an act of taking one's own life, self-murder. For earlier synonyms, see SELF-DESTRUCTION, SELF-HOMICIDE, SELF-KILLING, SELF-MURDER, SELF-SLAUGHTER.
v intr. and refl. To commit suicide.

Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition:
L. sui, of oneself + E. -cide, killing, slaying
n 1. Act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally; Law, Self-murder; deliberate and intentional destruction of one's own life by a person of years of discretion and sound mind.
v.i. To commit suicide.

The point is, that I am not at all convinced that the "thou shalt not do murder" was intended to pertain to killing oneself.

If you love to argue, that's fine, but I find argument completely pointless when someone is so thick as to be unable to concede the simplest of points. I am, therefore, after having wasted an hour of my life looking up this totally obvious stuff for you, done with this topic.

[Umfriend]

Sry to get you upset KVH, I do offer my aplogies.

Here you go, Umf. If you don't get it this time, I will assume that you are just arguing because you find it fun

Guilty as charged, and again, did not mean to take up so much of your time.

and not seeking any real enlightenment from the process.

I plead innocent. I do, and I enjoy any aha-experience I get here, which does not happen rarely.

In my defence though:
1. I agree the ten commandments are an important basis for modern morality. I submit that the testaments are not a conditio sine qua non for current or similar morality. I am aware of the role they play in our current morality and am thankful for that.
2, Being an atheist, I get upset when a religious person, in my circumstance mostly christian, accuses me of not having decent morals as they, as the claim goes, can only come from God through his revelations, which I do not accept as such (i.e. as revelations from God).
3. I do not jump of a cliff as I attach a positive value to my life: I like it. And yes, should that not be the case than I would indeed weigh the effects it would have on my wife, children, family and friends. I do not need God for that, the fact that I am sympathetic towards other people emotions is enough to consider them.
4. I do not accept the testaments as God-given. Given the important role the testaments play in our current morality and that a lot of people, propose laws and morals with them as backing, like you did, I feel it is completely reasonable to discuss both the merits of ones interpretation of it as the face value of it. We differ on whether the "kill"/"murder" as in the TC was meant to pertain to suicide as well.
5. American Heritage is easiest to use for me. My Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary, Second Edition definition of the verb murder is akin to yours. The noun murder however does say "...killing of one human being by another...".

[GuchiGuh]

serious question:
Where do you guys find the time to write all this? It's amazing...and interesting to boot!

[Umfriend]

Honestly? My boss pays me for this, but is not aware of it.....

I _am_ having moral problems over this.

[Brian Ellis]

Oxford Concise Electronic Dictionary 2000

murder // n. & v.
n.
1 the unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by another (cf. manslaughter).
2 colloq. an unpleasant, troublesome, or dangerous state of affairs (it was murder here on Saturday).
v.tr.
1 kill (a human being) unlawfully, esp. wickedly or inhumanly.
2 Law kill (a human being) unlawfully with a premeditated motive.
3 colloq. a utterly defeat. b spoil by a bad performance, mispronunciation, etc. (murdered the soliloquy in the second act).
cry (or scream) blue (N.Amer. bloody) murder slang make an extravagant outcry.
get away with murder colloq. do whatever one wishes and escape punishment.
murder will out murder cannot remain undetected.
murderer n.
murderess n.
[Old English morthor & Old French murdre, from Germanic]

suicide /, / n. & v.
n.
1 a the intentional killing of oneself. b a person who commits suicide.
2 a self-destructive action or course (political suicide).
3 (attrib.) Mil. designating a highly dangerous or deliberately suicidal operation etc. (a suicide mission).
v.intr. commit suicide.
[modern Latin suicida, suicidium from Latin sui ‘of oneself’]

Merriam-Websters Collegiate Dictionary (2004)

murder Main Entry: 1mur£der
Pronunciation: ‚m„r-d„r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century

1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous ²the traffic was murder³ b : something outrageous or blameworthy ²getting away with murder³

Main Entry: 2murder
Function: verb
Inflected Form: mur£dered ; mur£der£ing \‚m„r-d(„-)riŠ\
Date: 13th century

transitive senses
1 : to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice
2 : to slaughter wantonly : slay
3 a : to put an end to b : tease, torment c : mutilate, mangle ²murders French³ d : to defeat badly
intransitive senses : to commit murder
synonyms see kill

suicide Main Entry: 1sui£cide
Pronunciation: ‚sü-„-ƒsˆd
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin sui (general) of oneself + English-cide; akin to Old English & Old High German sˆn his, Latin suus one's own, sed, se without, Sanskrit sva oneself, one's own
Date: 1643

1 a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind b : ruin of one's own interests ²political suicide³
2 : one that commits or attempts suicide

Main Entry: 2suicide
Function: verb
Inflected Form: sui£cid£ed ; sui£cid£ing
Date: 1841

intransitive senses : to commit suicide
transitive senses : to put (oneself) to death

These are the full definitions, unedited, (except for my bolding).

Note that neither dictionary has self-murder for suicide and both are explicit and implicit that murder involves one person killing another. Notice also that the definition in criminal law may differ from that of general usage, but criminal law has nothing to do with Exodus ch 20, otherwise it would be a felony for me to look longingly at the beautiful wife who lives next door.

That the legal point of view differs from the Mosaic is shown by some states apply the Mosaic law to the executions of criminals or the waging of war while others don't. It is therefore decidedly non sequitur to apply legal definitions to moral issues.

However, as you quote your values as being Christian , what did Jesus say? I'm not going to quote the sermon on the mount in full here as you can read it in Matthew ch. 5 in whichever version you prefer. Perhaps you should read it half-a-dozen times, slowly, to realise what the Christian message is or - if that is too much for you -, how about John 3:16; those 24 words sum it all up in a nutshell. In other words, Jesus reinforced the Mosaic commandments with a totally different notion of brotherhood and love. Did he ask that the adulteress be stoned to death, as did the scribes and Pharisees? No, he told them to sin no more when none of them cast the first stone (John 8) (Incidentally, this is a fine example of "thou shalt not kill".)

Now we just have to agree that suicide is a subset of murder (helps when we use mathematical language? )

This is where we fundamentally differ. Murder, as is shown by all the definitions is "with malice aforethought". No one, in their right senses, is malicious to oneself. If one is not in his right senses, and is malicious to oneself, then the time-honoured phrase, used as an excuse to circumvent canon law, "while the balance of the mind is disturbed" comes into force, whitewashing the suicide of all sin, in the eyes of a ruthless church.

No, for me - and I'm neither atheist nor agnostic - your views are far too close to that of a vengeful God, something that was changed for true Christians, who are not imbued with the teachings of an Antichristian church, some 1972 years ago.

And for the record, I have studied maths to degree level, as part of my training as a scientist and engineer.

Finally, Umf's explanation of the original Hebrew most certainly rules out the medieval interpretation of suicide.

As a postscript, I had a friend who claimed he was atheist, but who never said, "There is no God" loudly, lest He hear.

2nd postscript for Umf: I did say vegan, not vegetarian.

[Brian R.]

You have to be careful to get full nutrition if you have specific eating preferences.

[Umfriend]

MyGod ( ), what have I started......

No I have to look up vegan as well.....

Webster's: 404 (?)
American Heritage: A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.
Wolters English-Dutch: Strenge vegetarier (Strict vegetarian)

As it pertined to their diet, I assumed it would not differ materially from a vegetarian

Finally, just to be sure, it is _not_ my explanation of the Hebrew word. I know no Hebrew. It's what I found at www.bible.org.

edit: all after the " "

[GuchiGuh]

All this because some german ate another german?

[Umfriend]

What? You got more important stuff to talk about?

[Brian Ellis]

A vegetarian will eat dairy products, eggs and other sources of animal proteins: some vegetarians will eat fish. I've even met some "no red meat" guys who claim to be vegetarian but happily eat their Christmas turkey.

A vegan won't touch anything with even a scrap of animal matter in it. Some of the things that are proscribed:
I can't believe it's not butter (it contains a small % of buttermilk)
Honey
Jellies
Oriental cuisine (oyster and fish sauces + monosodium glutamate)
Cochineal food colouring
Serum-based medications
Non-self-adhesive envelopes and stamps (animal glue)
Sized paper
etc., etc., etc.

One of my friends did allow himself a single exception when he was younger: he was a motorcyclist and he did wear leathers for protection.