Good vs. Evil, Capitalism vs. Socialism

[spadnos]

PoloticalCompass

Check out <a href="http://www.politicalcompass.org">The Political Compass</a>.

As they point out, it's hard to classify all political/economic systems on a single line. They expand this to a plane - they plot "ideologies" on an X-Y graph: X is the "economic" scale; Y is the "social" scale.

It's a very interesting test you can take. (I was happy to find myself near the Dalai Lama and Nelson Mandela on their chart )

The THEORY of communism or of capitalism are both fine (some mixture would probably be ideal - where everyone has what they need, and people who do more have more than they need - like big screen TV's and the like).

In PRACTICE, neither system has been properly implemented. It's a funny thing - for the most part, the "right wing" (usually characterized in the US as big business people) wants a free market for competition to thrive. Sadly, without large amounts of (government) oversight, there's no such thing as a free market. The same big companies use monopolistic tactics, mega-advertising, and other crap techniques that have NOTHING to do with the "value" of their products. The idea of "may the best product win" is almost totally absent from present day capitalistic societies.

sad sad sad sad.

- Steve

(sorry if this wasn't too coherent - I haven't finished my morning coffee yet.)

[Umfriend]

Hang on. The "free market" that is advocated by many is not one where government is absent. It is one where government, by establishing law and enforcing them, enables market participants to enter into contracts without fear of non-conforming and ensures people ownership of their (capitalist) possesions. No "capitalist" in his right mind would argue for the abolition of government. Indeed,
Some would argue however, that government should not limit freedom to contract, i.e. limit what agreements you can enter into, e.g., minimum wage laws don't allow you to agree to a job paying less.
There is a lot that can be said about this, but let me just say that:
1. Marx's theory on capitalism is a very interesting one IMO.
2. Government intervention in a capitalist economic order does not make it less capitalist and more communist.
3. I do not think the theory of communism, as in "communism is a state to strife for" is fine, au contraire.

[agallag]

Re: economic systems

Originally posted by Podfrog
people will always want money, it's what separates us from the animals.

No no no... as Homer Simpson said, "Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals... except the weasel"

[KvHagedorn]

You can't reasonably make a statement that Capitalism is good and Socialism is evil or vice versa. That's just far too simplistic. Different people and groups of people thrive under different circumstances, and some groups do better than others under whatever system they are put. I read a National Geographic article on East Germany wayback when, and still remember a quote from an East German when someone noted that people were better off there than in other eastern block countries. "Of course we have it better than the Bulgarians," the person said, "we're Germans!" While that might say more about the universality of German arrogance (east or west) , there is something to it, whether you call it the Protestant Work Ethic or whatever (though the same attitude was there before Luther and during the officially atheist government.)

There is also evidence to support what Brian Ellis is saying about small townships working on an essentially socialist level. Small groups work, but big ones don't.

[Brian Ellis]

Originally posted by TransformX
The Kibbutzim were built by communist jews and were based on their extreme communist ideas.
Those retards worshipped Stalin (yes, the same Stalin who butchered so many intellectuals and other great people. the "excuse" was that "When you cut wood, splinters fly")

Sorry, but when the Deganya Bet kevuzot was started, Stalin was just a 30 year-old bloke, still totally unknown, eight years before the October Revolution. Actually, one of the founders was Levi Eshkol, albeit he was only 14 at at the time. I don't think you would say he was Stalinist in his views. Moshe Dayan was born in the same kibbutz 6 years after it was started and I hardly credit him with Stalinism, either.

Stalin was still fairly obscure when he became Secretary General of the Soviet Communist party thirteen years later and stalinism, as a policy, started only in 1929, a full 20 years after Deganya was started as a collectivity.

I don't deny, though, that some kibbutzim were very radical and were the breeding ground for some of the more extremist factions that were to spring up.

[The Rock]

This is an absolutely fascinating discussion. So me being stupid, I must throw in a vague 2 cents and dumb it down.

I don't think the problems associated with either capitalism or socialism stem from the philosophies themselves, but more so from corrupt people who implement, run, and control the systems. You could have a perfect political-economic system, but if its run by greed and corruption....

[UtwigMU]

I like this quote on Socialism vs Capitalism:

If the air pressure difference is too big between two areas, a storm occurs. On the other hand if there's no difference, the air starts to stink.

So you have extreme examples such as China under Mao or Southern American Junta countries.

Both cases are bad.

However if you take Scandinavian countries, where healthcare, housing and education are well provided for by state and those who want to work more/have better ideas/know more... still earn more - that is IMO a good balance.

KvH - you yourself expressed disaprooval of CEOs getting millions even after performing poor, athletes earning millions per year and pharmaceutical companies ripping off people. (I'm not suggesting that you're a socialist, I'm just pointing out that moderate socialism and a few restrictions from the state are not bad.)

[KvHagedorn]

Originally posted by UtwigMU

KvH - you yourself expressed disaprooval of CEOs getting millions even after performing poor, athletes earning millions per year and pharmaceutical companies ripping off people. (I'm not suggesting that you're a socialist, I'm just pointing out that moderate socialism and a few restrictions from the state are not bad.)

Of course I'm a socialist when it comes to a reasonably equitable distribution of wealth, and I do agree that the Scandinavian countries have gotten it about right. HOWEVER, they could not have gotten it right if they were not who they are. That being a reasonably homogenous, highly educated, socially mature group which retains much of the values of self-sufficiency that have served them well for millennia.

[Podfrog]

&amp;

I'm just pointing out that moderate socialism and a few restrictions from the state are not bad

right. laissez faire is some worthless trash. govt. regs may be seen as an impediment to business, but i am fairly certain that businesses would work their employees to death, were it not for govt. regs. ah ****, i don't know what i'm talking about, i need some sleep.