Stupid Star Wars question

[GT98]

LOL ok Been thinking about this one:

In epsoides 1-3, we have the Clone wars, which are the battle between the Republic and the Trade Federation and Sepratist Forces. In Epsoides 3-6, its the Rebels (who are made up of who I'm not sure) vs the Republic forces.

Heres my question I havent figure out yet. I'm assuming the Republican forces that are in esp 1-3 are now the Evil Republic forces in esp 3-6. But is there anywhere in the Star Wars univerise that says, if/when the Republic won or whatever the Clone wars? I'm just trying to figure out how that one works..

[KvHagedorn]

Just put yourself into Palpatine's evil head and you will see.

1) Have someone on the edge of the Galaxy create some huge clone army which you can easily bend to your will.
2) Use the greedy trade federation to create discord which must be dealt with.
3) Get yourself made President
4) Have the senate give you special powers to deal with the discord
5) Declare yourself emperor and crush all opposition
6) Let hate and evil wreak havoc on your complexion

[Dr Mordrid]

Otherwise known as divide and conquor. See the writings of Niccolo Machiavelli, a brilliant but misunderstood Florentine political strategist who is considered by many the father of modern political theory.

Dr. Mordrid

[xortam]

I'm not sure if I'm even caught up with the Star Wars releases. The last one (prequel 3) is going to come out this summer, right? I recently read this last one won't be targeted to young ones so much. I saw the one with the silly Jar-Jar Binks (or whatever the name is) but wasn't that the first prequel (Ep. 1)? I think I saw prequel 2 but I don't recall what that was about (saw the prequel(s) at home). Took me forever (well over a year) to see the first one because I didn't want to stand in a long line, though it was an okay movie. The rest ...

[Gurm]

Yes yes. The clone wars are drawing to an end as Episode 3 BEGINS (my bad, edited). The Republic, led by Chancellor Palpatine (soon to be EMPEROR Palpatine) wins. The clone troopers end up being called "storm troopers".

What's so hard to understand here?

[Jammrock]

CAUTION: POTENTIAL SPOILERS! You have been warned.
























[potential spoilers]


Okay, going to add great detail to what has already been said. This does contain spoilers! Though I will try to keep them to a minimum and to what can be deduced from the original 3 movies.

LOL ok Been thinking about this one:

In epsoides 1-3, we have the Clone wars, which are the battle between the Republic and the Trade Federation and Sepratist Forces. In Epsoides 3-6, its the Rebels (who are made up of who I'm not sure) vs the Republic forces.

Ep. 1 is Palpatine's setup. One of the great ideas that Lucas is presenting in Star Wars is that all democracies/republics eventually crumble (see Rome, Greece, post-WW1 Germany, etc.). Palpatine is the catalyst of this destruction. So in pre-ep. 1 and ep. 1 he builds the clone army, sets himself up to become president of the galactic senate, etc.

Ep. 2 is the plan put into motion. With his apprentice Darth Maul killed he turns to a more sinister mind in an ex-Jedi (and apparently an aristocrate), Count Dooku. Dooku is the front man for Palpatine's plans. Clone Wars officially start at the END of ep. 2. All the while Palpatine is keeping his eye on Anakin, as he has the potential to replace Dooku with something new ... the power to destroy the Jedi.

The Clone Wars ... the actual events of the Clone Wars will NOT be shown in the movie. They are being handle with comics, books, and the Cartoon Network Clone Wars micro-saga (the final season 3 starts on 21 March in the US on Cartoon Network @ 7pm ET/PT). The gist of the Clone Wars are like the end of Ep. 2 ... Jedi's leading the "Republic Clone Army" into battle against the seperatist, except you miss some key events. During the Clone Wars the Jedi are very specifically targeted. The Clone Wars seem to be simply a cover-up to attack Jedi temples, sancuaries, mines for lightsaber crystals, and the Jedi themselves. The Clone Wars get so bad, and the reason for fighting so vague, that many Jedi and Jedi Master refuse to fight and seperate themselves from the Jedi Order (possibly join the other side, or had been killed but made to look like they left, the rumors are vague). Towards the end of the Clone Wars the Seperatists get a new battle commander named General Grevious. GG is a cyborg, half machine, half unknown lifeform, with four arms and he wields lightsabers. GG is a Jedi killing machine, and a brilliant military tactitian. GG is so good that his main force breaks through the Republic Army and reaches Coursant (the city planet that is the seat of the Republic's power). Enter Ep. 3...

GG is attacking Coursant, and all the Jedi are called on to defend Coursant, which is also the seat of Jedi power. A massive battle ensues. To skip the major spoilers I will say this (and this can all be deduced from what is already released). The Jedi are destroyed except for the 2 Sith (Palpatine and Anankin/Lord Vader), 2 Jedi (Yoda and Obi-wan), and 2 Jedi children (Luke and Leah Skyhopper), and the speratists are crushed at the same time. With the Jedi and Seperatists gone there is no one left with an army capable of opposing Chancellor Palpatine. Palpatine reveals his dark self, takes total control of the Republic, changes it to the Galactic Empire and declares himself Emperor thereof...

Enter the original SW movies, eps. 4-6....

Heres my question I havent figure out yet. I'm assuming the Republican forces that are in esp 1-3 are now the Evil Republic forces in esp 3-6. But is there anywhere in the Star Wars univerise that says, if/when the Republic won or whatever the Clone wars? I'm just trying to figure out how that one works..

After Palpatine declared himself Emperor, a new "Seperatists" like group formed called the Rebels. The Clone army had by that point been wiped out by the war and the Jedi, or gone mad and died (the last part is SW lore. Clones could only live for so long before they went mad and they had a shorter than normal natural lifespan ... this also explains why the Stormtroopers of Eps. 4-6 are so crappy, because they are NOT the bad ass clones of the Clone Wars, but regular GI Joes). Back on topic... The Stormtroopers and all of the "Old Republic Army" ceased to be and became the Galactic Empire's army.

I can't go into a lot more detail than that, as it would be a MAJOR spoiler for ep. 3. So in essence the Old Republic beat the seperatists with it's clone army, so in that aspect they "won." However, they lost their freedom to the Emperor in the process, so they really lost. And that's the true answer ... won the battle, lost the war, to steal an expression.






[/potential spoilers]

Jammrock

[Gurm]

Ok just a few pieces of clarification, which AREN'T spoilers for anything in the movie even though they address Jammrock's post.

----------------

In Star Wars, there is a CLEAR separation between what happens in the movies, and what happens in the comics, cartoons, books, games, etc. The latter series of events are referred to as "Extended Universe". The reason for the separation should be obvious upon reflection - there are lots of "why don't they do ... {Insert Sensible Thing X From Books Here} when ... {Insert Event Y Here} happens?" sorts of questions that pop up if you follow the happenings in the EU.

Extended Universe contains such things as definitions of the force (some of which contradict "Midichlorians"), explanations of Jedi powers (things such as the valley of the Jedi where Force Powers can be gained and lost), Lightsaber Crystals (never addressed in the movies PERIOD), how Jedis must construct their own lightsaber to progress to apprentice level, and so on and so forth.

Jedi Temples, Jedi Holocrons, and much of the lore of thousands of years of the Jedi order (as well as the Sith equivalents, although not as much is known about them - intentionally), are contained in the EU.

The reason that Lucas chose to skip the clone wars in the movies... is twofold. Firstly, it would have made an already bogged-down Episode 1&2 even more bogged down, and also crippled Episode 3 which promises to actually be a GOOD Star Wars movie for a change. And secondly, too much of what happens in the clone wars is tied up with EU events to ever be adequately covered in the movies. Lucas already has too darn many loose ends.

Now, my favorite series of loose ends... *ahem*

1. Chronology.

Luke is 20-ish in Episode 4. That means Episode 3 happens ROUGHLY 20 years before Episode 4 (since he goes to the Dark Side and Amidala takes off during Episode 3 - and no that's not a spoiler, c'mon people you all know that). Yet, the following occur:

- Obi Wan ages from late 30's or early 40's to about 80.
Of course some will say that he just LOOKS older because life on Tatooine is pretty rough. Fine fine.
- People everywhere refer to the Jedi order and the Force as "an ancient, dead religion". Prime example is the Imperial commander in Episode 4 who says "Lord Vader, your continued devotion to that ancient dead religion is ... etc.", yet this guy is clearly like 30 or 40 years old. So for the first HALF of his life, there were Jedi EVERYWHERE. Can you imagine referring to events in 1980 as "ancient"?

Now mind you some parts of the Chronology DO work. Vader announces in Episode 4 that "the last vestiges of the old republic have finally been swept away". Wow, that took long enough - 20 years for the Emperor to disband the senate? Sounds about right - if he had tried to do that right away he would have had a BIG rebellion on his hands.

2. Convenient memory lapses

C3PO doesn't seem to have ANY recollection of anyone from the first 3 episodes. I mean Anakin BUILT him, and he worked on Tatooine for 10+ years. Yet he has no idea who Vader is, has no idea who Luke is, has no idea who Obi-Wan is, and finds Tatooine to be a new and confusing place. Hrm.
Some have speculated that he had his memory wiped.

R2D2 on the other hand knows everything, knows his way around, etc.

Vader doesn't recognize either of the droids, either. THAT's the troubling part. C'mon - you build a protocol droid for your mom, and the Emperor uses your mom's death and your love for her to fuel your hate and turn you to the dark side, but you don't remember building the droid, you don't remember either of the droids?

Vader ALSO doesn't seem to have any clear recognition or familiarity with Tatooine. AGAIN, odd. That brings us to another point. What the F**K made Obi-Wan think that having Anakin's step-brother raise Luke was a good idea? And gimme a break- Vader is evil, but would he REALLY have had his stormtroopers NUKE his family? That's his half-brother and sister-in-law there. I mean they WERE protecting Luke, and he WAS turned to the Dark Side, but family? C'mon.

Ahh I dunno. Lucas STILL hasn't explained Midichlorians (the Force is a virus!), why some Jedi turn into holograms and some don't, (ANAKIN, NOOOOO!) or how a perfectly good acress like Natalie Portman can turn in such horrid performances across a 3-movie arc.

[VJ]

- People everywhere refer to the Jedi order and the Force as "an ancient, dead religion". Prime example is the Imperial commander in Episode 4 who says "Lord Vader, your continued devotion to that ancient dead religion is ... etc.", yet this guy is clearly like 30 or 40 years old. So for the first HALF of his life, there were Jedi EVERYWHERE. Can you imagine referring to events in 1980 as "ancient"?

Perhaps, esp. if their would have been cataclismic changes in for instance 1981. Imagine that for some reason there were no more cars from 1981 on; in that situation, I can imagine that people refer to the existance of cars as ancient times. Even moreso if those times are certain never to come back.

Of course, if no large scale change happened (which we should see in episode 3), you do have a point there.


Jörg

[Jammrock]

HUGE MASSIVE GARGANTUAN SPOILER AHEAD!!!!!

Vader ALSO doesn't seem to have any clear recognition or familiarity with Tatooine. AGAIN, odd. That brings us to another point. What the F**K made Obi-Wan think that having Anakin's step-brother raise Luke was a good idea? And gimme a break- Vader is evil, but would he REALLY have had his stormtroopers NUKE his family? That's his half-brother and sister-in-law there. I mean they WERE protecting Luke, and he WAS turned to the Dark Side, but family? C'mon.

Uh ... Anakin kills his own wife in Ep. 3 ... so yes it is possible.



































Jammrock

[Gurm]

HUGE MASSIVE GARGANTUAN SPOILER AHEAD!!!!!

Uh ... Anakin kills his own wife in Ep. 3 ... so yes it is possible.

Are you sure? I'm not disagreeing with you because I've been purposely avoiding it, but Leia remembers her mom...



































Heh.

[KRSESQ]

At least, Leia remembers someone she WAS LEAD TO BELIEVE was her mother.

All these speculations on the inconsistancies lead me to think that Lucas is full of it when he claims he planned this all out way back when he wrote the original Star Wars. I think he's just pulling it all out of his arse on the fly and trying to tie it all together the best he can.

For instance, I don't believe he had an inkling when he was putting the finishing touches on Star Wars that (SPOILER ALERT) Vader was Luke's father.

Interestingly, in the first drafts of the original script, the Luke and Leia characters were switched; Leia was raised on Tatooine by her "uncle" and Luke was captured by Vader in the opening battle. It would have made for some VERY interesting sparks with Han Solo in THAT incarnation.

Vader doesn't recognize either of the droids, either. THAT's the troubling part. C'mon - you build a protocol droid for your mom, and the Emperor uses your mom's death and your love for her to fuel your hate and turn you to the dark side, but you don't remember building the droid, you don't remember either of the droids?

You know all droids look alike to most people. C3PO's design appears fairly generic (like all those damned Compaq computers floating around). There are probably millions of C3s and R2s stumbling around the galaxy.

Vader ALSO doesn't seem to have any clear recognition or familiarity with Tatooine. AGAIN, odd. That brings us to another point. What the F**K made Obi-Wan think that having Anakin's step-brother raise Luke was a good idea? And gimme a break- Vader is evil, but would he REALLY have had his stormtroopers NUKE his family? That's his half-brother and sister-in-law there. I mean they WERE protecting Luke, and he WAS turned to the Dark Side, but family? C'mon.

Having most of your skin burned off by molten lava can be a pretty traumatic experience. Couple that with his violent behavior leading up to his seduction by the Dark Side and one could see where Vader would have some serious memory-suppression issues. Especially if Palpatine was doing some hard-core Force-induced mind-control mumbo-jumbo on him.

Kevin

[Gurm]

At least, Leia remembers someone she WAS LEAD TO BELIEVE was her mother.

Feh.

All these speculations on the inconsistancies lead me to think that Lucas is full of it when he claims he planned this all out way back when he wrote the original Star Wars. I think he's just pulling it all out of his arse on the fly and trying to tie it all together the best he can.

No no, I honestly believe that he had a "general outline" for 9 episodes. Interviews with the actors have supported this - that he was talking about episode 9 being out "around 2010" and that he would give them all cameos if it happened.

For instance, I don't believe he had an inkling when he was putting the finishing touches on Star Wars that (SPOILER ALERT) Vader was Luke's father.

Oh, I do.

Interestingly, in the first drafts of the original script, the Luke and Leia characters were switched; Leia was raised on Tatooine by her "uncle" and Luke was captured by Vader in the opening battle. It would have made for some VERY interesting sparks with Han Solo in THAT incarnation.

I hadn't read about that particular early draft scenario. I know that originally Luke was supposed to be "Luke Starkiller", which would have changed the tone of a lot.

You know all droids look alike to most people. C3PO's design appears fairly generic (like all those damned Compaq computers floating around). There are probably millions of C3s and R2s stumbling around the galaxy.

Yah I suppose so. And so long as C3PO had been reprogrammed NOT to yell out "IT'S THE MASTER!" when Anakin showed up...

Having most of your skin burned off by molten lava can be a pretty traumatic experience. Couple that with his violent behavior leading up to his seduction by the Dark Side and one could see where Vader would have some serious memory-suppression issues. Especially if Palpatine was doing some hard-core Force-induced mind-control mumbo-jumbo on him.

I don't think there was any "mind control", the Dark Side is seductive enough all by itself. Besides, nowhere in ANY material has it been suggested that either light or dark side have out-and-out "mind control". In fact, even the "suggestion" power only works on the "weak minded".

[Technoid]

I dont have the starwars releases from 97' so I cant check it but I'm quite sure that mr Lucas contradicts himself several times on the commentator tracks on the dvd releases vs the 97' behind the scenes shows....

[GT98]

Ok stupid question...why dont the Jedi know that Paltentine is a Sith?

[KvHagedorn]

Because they could snuff him and there would be no story left.