UK National Health Service

[Umfriend]

Wow, you're on a roll. Thx for that. Just one quickie; what's the problem with one final hi-tech state of the art diagnosis?

[cjolley]

Wow, you're on a roll. Thx for that. Just one quickie; what's the problem with one final hi-tech state of the art diagnosis?

Why?
She has been diagnosed by several independent court appointed doctors already.
This has been in the courts for YEARS.
After that there will be something else, a new scan, a different angle, some different doctor.
The parents can not let go.

It's not too hard to understand why.
Remember, her husband thinks of her as an adult human being.
But, the parents can still remember when she was an infant.
Outwardly not too different from what she is now.

But she is profoundly different from an infant on the inside.
They just can't face it and have the resources to keep pursuing thier fantasy.

It's very sad.
She is no longer their baby.
They are not her immediate family now, her husband is.

[Umfriend]

According to Dr. M., the latest diagnosis has been a long time ago, that's all. On the other hand, if her doctors say they've had sufficient opportunity to diagnose (and used it) and state she is beyond meaningfull recovery, then yes, it may well be time to let her go and her husband too.

[cjolley]

...On the other hand, if her doctors say they've had sufficient opportunity to diagnose (and used it) and state she is beyond meaningfull recovery...

It's not just her doctors. the court has appointed doctors also, independent of the husband
And that's exactly what they have all said.
Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

The parents case has been before more that half a dozen judges and ALL of them have concluded that the parents have no basis in fact for their case.

And now even in federal court.
Why? Because they look at evidence and not web pages to make their determinations.

[Umfriend]

OK, thx, we're done. Anyway, I do agree that matters as these should be left to politicians. Just was not sure of the actual facts and moral issue, but am now I guess.

[xortam]

Would this have likely happened outside of the U.S. District of Florida?

[cjolley]

Would this have likely happened outside of the U.S. District of Florida?

Every judge who has ever looked at it has said the same thing.
So I guess so.

[xortam]

Every judge who has ever looked at it has said the same thing.
So I guess so.

I'm talking about the issue being propelled into the Federal government from a "State" run by one of the Bush clan.

[xortam]

U.S. insurance companies will be the death of us all. The insurance companies (TICs ) have huge affect as to which doctors are willing to work within their various health networks. The TICs tie the hands of doctors in regards to treatments or diagnostic steps that they normally would feel prudent to take. Those of us who are supposedly covered by insurance are forced to cough up huge sums of money in order to get all the medical treatment we (Doctor and patient) feel we need because the TICs won't cover those additional expenses. How long can this situation continue? How are we going to correct this problem?

[KvHagedorn]

U.S. insurance companies will be the death of us all. The insurance companies (TICs ) have huge affect as to which doctors are willing to work within their various health networks. The TICs tie the hands of doctors in regards to treatments or diagnostic steps that they normally would feel prudent to take. Those of us who are supposedly covered by insurance are forced to cough up huge sums of money in order to get all the medical treatment we (Doctor and patient) feel we need because the TICs won't cover those additional expenses. How long can this situation continue? How are we going to correct this problem?

Just don't buy insurance. It's a sucker's game. I actually know someone whose brother got cancer in his leg a couple of years ago and the treatments and titanium bone/knee replacements cost over a million dollars. Do you think that's a bill that's ever going to be paid? He's poor and has no insurance. The downside is he is a guinea pig for all the experimental treatments (which apparently have saved his life so oh, well.)

[Umfriend]

Just don't buy insurance. It's a sucker's game. I actually know someone whose brother got cancer in his leg a couple of years ago and the treatments and titanium bone/knee replacements cost over a million dollars. Do you think that's a bill that's ever going to be paid? He's poor and has no insurance. The downside is he is a guinea pig for all the experimental treatments (which apparently have saved his life so oh, well.)

Well, if the policy covers it, it'll be paid. I guess costs over a threshold could be excluded and I would expect any policy to outline which treatments are and which are not covered.

Of course, on average, it is a suckers game. The pemium will more than pay for your _expected_ medicare costs and organisation costs. It is a for-profit organisation after all. Insurance is not meant to make money for insurance takers, just to even out risks. Given that most people are risk-adverse, they can often be persuaded to enter into a transaction that should be viewed as "negative NPV", i.e., where your expectation is that you will recieve less than you pay. Really rich people IMO should not buy insurance.

[Helevitia]

EXACTLY!!

The situation in this case is not just as simple as Mrs. Schiavo's hubby "doing the right thing". Not even close.

Actually, yes it is.

1. she is NOT on life support, just a feeding tube. Lots of people are on feeding tubes.

It is true that she can breath on her own and her blood flows normally, but outside of that, she has nothing. She is not aware of her surroundings at all, she is essentially a shell of her former self.

2. she is NOT comatose, and the diagnosis of her being in a "persistant vegetative state" is controversial at best. Even the definition of PVS is debateable, especially given recent research (see below).

Doctors that have diagnosed her have said over and over again that she has ZERO awareness of anything. Yes, she has on occasion, smiled or laughed or cried or something similar, but they have said time and time again that these were not in direct response to any specific action and that it is just a reaction of what is left of her brain. Only "snake-oil" doctors and doctors from far away have debated PVS.

3. her husband is in control of her rather extensive estate (from a malpractice lawsuit), meaning that he has something to gain from her death: not having to pay for her continuing care while inheriting her remaining estate. IF her care was transferred to her blood family much of this money would revert to the control of her caretakers: mom & dad, and they're already well off.

This malpractice suit that you speak of will give the husband very little money. In fact, he has been offered large sums of money, much more than the mal-[practice suit to reliquish control of Terry Schiavo. Another fact, he has never signed any books deals or tv deals, UNLIKE HER PARENTS

4. he's been living in a common law relationship with another woman for many years and has 2 children by her, yet he's never divorced his wife to legalize the relationship. Oops.

What does this prove?

5. for many years he's refused to let physical and speech therapists work with her, dispite the FACT that she does utter words, names etc. appropriately. Speech and physical therapists who HAVE examined her think they can get her speaking and feeding herself, but he refuses to let them work with her.

He has spent several years aggressively trying to treat her and her condition with no success. I can't comment about therapists being refused to treat her but I find it unlikely to be true based on what I have said is actual fact.

[quote]
6. He's also refused to let her parents to pay for doing a functional MRI, which according to recently published research would go a long ways towards ascertaining the actual functional state of her brain.
[/quote

Huh? She has had many MRI's. What do you mean by functional? I have had 10 MRI's myself and I have never heard of a "fucntional" MRI. Have you ever seen her MRI? Her brain is damn near black.

7. He has also refused to let her have a PET scan, which could also contribute much valuable information as to the state of her brain functions. All she's had is a CAT scan, and that was done LONG ago.

Anyone but me find these situations a bit fishy and convenient?

IMO what's necessary is that Mrs. Schiavo needs to have a court appointed attorney act as her agent, independend of both sides and who'll be HER advocate and willing to persue the true state of her status.

Dr. Mordrid

Where were you reading your "facts"? The 700 club web site?

[Helevitia]

Left: Her MRI
Right: Normal MRI

[KvHagedorn]

What about severely retarded people who cannot take care of themselves? Should we just take away all assistance from them as well.. kick them out the door and have them fend for themselves? Where do you draw the line? Even the Nazis would have just put a pillow over her head and made no bones about killing her, but gutless, nutless judges have to let her starve slowly and agonizingly.. American judges out-brutalizing the SS.. how about that?

[xortam]

Amazing how many "judges" there are in this very personal matter.