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NASA cev/lunar/mars plans coming into focus

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  • NASA cev/lunar/mars plans coming into focus

    They appear to be going the capsule route and are going to recycle as much shuttle based harsware as possible.

    Major features of the new manned program;

    * There will be 2 versions of the Crew Exploration Vehicle; a 3 person model for ferrying astronauts to and from the ISS and a 4 person model for longer flights including lunar and Mars missions. Both would be Apollo-style capsules, but this does not mean small. Rumor is that the 4 person CEV could be as large as 25 tons.

    * An unmanned version of the CEV would be used as a cargo carrier, conducting 3 ISS resupply flights a year.

    * The CEV would launch atop a booster whose design is virtually the same as the shuttle SRB's. The second stage would be based either on either a shuttle main engine or the Saturn V's J2 upper stage engine.

    * CEV's would be equipped with escape rockets much like those used with Mercury, Gemini and Apollo. These could get the CEV and its crew out of danger very quickly in the case of a booster malfunction.

    * A new heavy-lift booster will be capable of launching 100 metric tons into orbit, but its capacity could evolve to 120 metric tons for lunar and Mars missions. This would likely consist of a modded shuttle external tank, two or more shuttle SRB's and up to 5 shuttle main engines. It would be as large as the Saturn V.

    Most of this looks very similar to what was recommended by the Astronaut Corps, so it sounds like the new NASA administration is actually listening for a change.

    Look for the decisions to be finalized later this month.

    While this is going on Scaled Compsites is using SpaceShipOne's White Knight launch plane to test NASA's X-37 space plane for DARPA. They've already started a series of captive carry flights and are scheduled to start drop tests once those are concluded.

    The X-37 project is exploring commercial and military reusable space vehicle market applications, be they on-orbit satellite repair to the next-generation of totally reusable launch vehicles.
    Dr. Mordrid
    Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 5 July 2005, 21:46.
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    Some of it sounds like Energia...

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    • #3
      More info in this pic;



      Man...that heavy lifter sure looks impressive

      Dr. Mordrid
      Dr. Mordrid
      ----------------------------
      An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

      I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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      • #4
        Nice to see that NASA is on the right track again
        If there's artificial intelligence, there's bound to be some artificial stupidity.

        Jeremy Clarkson "806 brake horsepower..and that on that limp wrist faerie liquid the Americans call petrol, if you run it on the more explosive jungle juice we have in Europe you'd be getting 850 brake horsepower..."

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        • #5
          TAKING ALL BETS! Does anyone think even the first segment of this plan will fly before 2012? I'm giving odds of 2-1 against. Unless the new administrator of NASA is as good at politics as he is at engineering. Of course, one wouldn't normally become administrator of NASA without knowing SOMETHING about politics, so perhaps the question is moot.

          And am I missing something, or is this system lacking a means for getting large payloads back to earth (which is what the space shuttle was originally designed to do as a matter of routine but don't get me started )?

          Finally, take a look at the base of the largest cargo ship (top right). Looks like R2D2 (or one of his brothers) is REALLY ready for some action!

          Kevin

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          • #6
            Sounds like market speak to me.
            Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
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            • #7
              KRESQ:

              Better take back that bet. This plan was largely developed in conjunction with the Astronaut Office with safety paramount, followed by using existing tech where practical to lower costs.

              Congress got on board last month on a bi-partisan basis and the plan is due to be finalized sometime this month. All it needs it the Presidents signature, and the new NASA administrator was appointed by him mainly for the purpose of implemting whichever of the options were selected by the working group. This is it.

              His other assignment was to shake up NASA's top management. He did that in spades last month when about 50 top managers were replaced by people who weren't tied to the shuttle-at-all-costs school of "thought", but were at least open to the idea of a new paradigm.

              The use of SRB's as the CEV launcher is an idea first proposed by some of the Astronauts. It's main points are reliability, safety and reusability;

              * Reliability because solid rockets are far simpler and easier to launch; no corrosive or cryogenic fuels, no turbo pumps etc. etc. etc.

              * Safety because if a solid boosters shell cracks all it does is lose the internal pressure needed to burn rapidly then fizzle, not explode like a bomb. This gives the escape tower extra time to get 'em out of trouble.

              * Reusability because they can be recovered and reloaded, just as is currently done when they're used with the shuttle.

              The upper stage is to be an existing design so all that's really necessary is to design a new capsule and service module.

              Because of these factors it also makes easier having a backup launcher and vehicle available at short notice for rescue missions. Drag it out, fuel the upper stage and do what's necessary. You sure can't do that with a shuttle.

              As for the top of the heavy lifter:

              That type of payload shell has been SOP for heavy lift launchers for almost 30 years. The only thing new is using existing designs assembled in a new way. It's called "thinking outside the box", something NASA's been avoiding for a long time because of their shuttle addiction. Well, those days are over.

              As for the shuttle bringing things back from space: in what part of the multiverse? There were a lot of things the shuttle was supposed to do that never made sense, and that was one of 'em.

              Dr. Mordrid
              Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 6 July 2005, 14:26.
              Dr. Mordrid
              ----------------------------
              An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

              I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
                ...
                * Safety because if a solid boosters shell cracks all it does is lose the internal pressure needed to burn rapidly then fizzle, not explode like a bomb. This gives the escape tower extra time to get 'em out of trouble.
                ...
                As long as they can stay out of the way of the other SRB(s) and wash when the stack breaks up.
                Assuming that the structure is not up to being suddenly flipped over.

                Are the SRBs steerable?
                Where would the non-failing SRBs wind up?
                Chuck
                秋音的爸爸

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                • #9
                  The CEV launcher uses a single SRB, so there wouldn't be any "other SRB's" to avoid.

                  Yes, the SRB's nozzle is steerable. There are four servovalves that move the nozzle acutators in response to the guidance system.

                  Long before the stack breaks up the pressure drop in the combustion chamber will have triggered the escape tower. If you've ever seen the tests done with the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo escape towers you'll know that this is a very rapid high-G ride out of danger.

                  An out of spec attitude indicating an immenent tipover would also trigger the escape tower and get 'em out of Dodge long before it was a danger.

                  Dr. Mordrid
                  Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 6 July 2005, 15:08.
                  Dr. Mordrid
                  ----------------------------
                  An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                  I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                  • #10
                    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it, if it can be pulled together. The shuttle-derived heavy lift booster concept has been floating around for at least 25 years, and if it works as advertised it'll be more than the Orbiter ever did. Not the Orbiter's fault, just politics. (Pardon my cynicism.)

                    And I was being facetious about R2D2. Look at the nozzle array on the 240K booster. It looks a little like one of George Lucas's Droids dressed for a party. Get it? Anyone?

                    I'll reserve judgement on the CEV until I see hardware.

                    Kevin

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                    • #11
                      If they stopped using stupid lb and foot and started using metrics they wouldnt have soo many crashes to contend with.

                      "Or was it foot? I didnt program the engine in foot! - So the retro engine fired beneath the surface of Mars??"



                      ~~DukeP~~

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                      • #12
                        Tidbit:

                        I just got my Scientific American in the mail today, and their editorial page supports this plan.

                        Dr. Mordrid
                        Dr. Mordrid
                        ----------------------------
                        An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                        I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                        • #13
                          You mean the use of the metric system?

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                          • #14
                            Actually Scientific America have always embraced the Metric system...


                            ~~DukeP~~

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