How could governments fight the war on terror? Without military action.

[Fluff]

*** Sorry should be in Temp , I guess ***

Get their infrastructures less dependent on fuel.

By laying out a proper plan. Including switching to Nuclear.

Make people more aware about what oil is used for, than just filling up their cars and heating / cooling their homes. I'm sure alot of people dont know where even plastic products come from!!

[Kurt]

well....there's no RIGHT way to fight that kind of problem.

Fighting the footsoldier will only get you so far. You need to fight the ones that decide.

Right now that means the religious authority. Since they're the ones promoting all sorts of extremisms, there's not much room for maneuver. Either they can be convinced that The West is not the evil they think it is (but you've got their Faith as über counterargument) or they need to focus on somebody else. Eventually someone will have a nose bleed.

What will probably happen is more wars and other revolutions in islamic countries. The US is probably funding the moderates no end for a somewhat peaceful resolution of this problem (i.e. let them take over the power in their country and get rid of the nuisance - try to bind them into an alliance or other treaty of eternal friendship as well).

The crux of the problem is Faith. You can't just convince someone that his/her religion is not reasonable or worse, wrong. It degenerates, every time.

[Brian Ellis]

Too late now as far as AQ is concerned. The big error is to create the conditions for terror to develop, whether it be in N. Ireland, Israel/Palestine, ME, Spain Basque country, Corsica, Chechnya or wherever. In every case, the terror is in response to a heavy-handed, arrogant approach and a refusal to listen to those with genuine grievances. If these guys have a real grievance, regional, national or international, even if it may be considered as imaginary, then the negotiation table, an open mind on both sides, and a spirit of give and take, is the only way to ensure that terror will not ensue.

Once terror has started, the process of volte face (and loss of face on both sides) makes the process of stopping it infinitely more difficult and is a declaration of the failure of the government to even listen to the terrorists' initial revendications. Unfortunately, this can last centuries (some of the ME problems were probably aggravated by the Crusades nearly a millennium ago).

And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin
Is pride that apes humility.

(S.T. Coleridge) IMHO, this describes the basic cause of terrorism, on both sides.

[Fluff]

Shame it always boils down to that.

I have a feeling if attitudes don't change. This is going to be the bloodiest century in the history of mankind,

[The PIT]

Well in Britain we could bring back Oliver Cromwell. Now with him in charge there wouldn't be any other religons allowed and they would be shipped out, converted or shot.

I could stand being forced to go to church and wear black. Black suits me after all. Sunday returning to a day of rest so no DIY etc. My room is rather bare anyway so Oliver wouldn't find that too offensive but he'd probably dislike my record collection and DVD's.

Curing terrorism once it's gets going is very hard like Brian says. I belive most Terror is driven by the desire for power and religon is used as a tool or an excuse.

There was one Muslim state that infiltrated the extremist and encouraged them to get more extreme until they own people turned on them. They also started killing each other as neither was considered a proper Muslim until they wiped themselfs out.

In the West of course you can't do this but you can make it harder by bugging suspect places of worship and monitoring all calls. Deportation will have to be easier or even exile will have to be considered. Extremist places of Worship will have to be closed and all people monitored.

[schmosef]

the terror is in response to a heavy-handed, arrogant approach and a refusal to listen to those with genuine grievances. If these guys have a real grievance, regional, national or international, even if it may be considered as imaginary...

I hardly know where to begin. Wouldn't it be really easy if the problem was our fault? Then we could just fix it and make it go away! It's not nearly that simple...

Brian, the main grievance of Islamic terrorism is that we exist. What kind of open mind do you propose I have at the negotiating table? Furthermore, the Koran says not to negotiate with the unbelievers, lest they corrupt you and take you down with them.

I know you believe the Koran to be a peaceful book. But I'm reading it and I have to disagree.

I guess if you tried really hard you could cut through all the fire and brimstone to focus on just the few passages that say that it is by God's will that some people's hearts and minds are sealed against the Koran and that those people exist as a test and should be avoided and left in peace.

But those are not the passages that the Jihadists are focusing on. They are focusing on the passages that state that non-believers need to be forcibly subjugated for the sake of Islamic pride. They believe the passages that say that Jews and Christians should be forced to convert or pay an alms tax, or if they refuse kill them along with the idolators.

This very morning I happened to read the part of the Koran that reaffirms and redefines the 10 commandments. It says very clearly (I don’t have the book with me so I'm paraphrasing), "do not kill, for that is the worst of sins" and then it says "unless you have a good reason". WTF?!

I think that it is not by co-incidence that these 101 Biblical contradictions started floating around the internet and are being promoted by Islamic evangelists and apologists. They are a superficial and intellectually dishonest attempt to deflect attention away from the gross contradictions within the Koran. For every passage in the Koran that promotes a peaceful, pacifist outlook, there is another passage, sometimes immediately before, sometimes immediately after, and sometimes both before and after, to contradict it.

The only way to combat the scourge of Islamic terrorism is for a recognised Islamic scholar to publish a Koranic based refutation of the Jihadist interpretation of Islam. Until that happens, Muslims around the world will not have a tangible means to separate themselves from the Jihadists in their mosques and communities.

(Tune in next week when I document how the Koran warns against attempts to alter the meaning and intent of any passage lest Muslims fall from grace the way that the Jews and Christians did!)

[The PIT]

Lets say this. When I started to read the Koran I had to go read a far bit before I got to first sections about dealing with non-believers. So it's not kill kill kill from the very beginning.

A Muslim I was talking on Saturday told me that Koran doesn't say you can't drink. Well in mine it says

a) You can.

b) You can but in moderation only.

c) It then says you can't drink.

Sadly having a memory like a sieve I cannot remember which passages it came from.

It says the following for revenge. If someone kills your Brother you may kill only one of there family. Otherwise you get a mess of course. Later on it may contridict that I don't know. I suppose I should finnish it. However contrary whats written here it's a fairly dull book and not every sentance is saying Kill the non-believer.

Those that think I'm getting soft the Koran does clearly give fuel to the extremists as the Koran does say Kill the Non-Believers as well.

By the way the Muslim religon isn't a pacifist religon like the Christianity supposed to be. If you kick them they're allowed to kick you back. People following Christianity haven't got a 100% record either.

[schmosef]

Mine says something about not being allowed to drink lest your faith be diminished and your resolve against idolatry weakened while drunk.

You’re right to say that it doesn't start out with "kill kill kill". It starts out with a lot of hateful invectives against Jews and Christians for corrupting the scriptures they were previously given and intentionally altering the words of the prophets whom God sent to them.

For a while it suggests that God will take care of them when the time comes. There are many references to hell and fire as part of God's planed punishment for not following the true path.

It's a little later that it starts to say that Muslims should kill anybody who stands against them and that war with the non-believers is part of God's plan to test the faith of the Muslim people.

(paraphrasing) "Do not waiver in your resolve lest you be judged unworthy of paradise." "God knows what is in your heart and mind."

[The PIT]

It would be interesting to compare different Korans. Since they cannot be altered they should say the exact same thing.

[schmosef]

Early on, it says that God didn't "bother" to use his "Powers" to ensure that the previous scriptures were not altered. Only with the Koran did he finally decide it was necessary.

Well I'm convinced.

[Fluff]

Quote
The only way to combat the scourge of Islamic terrorism is for a recognised Islamic scholar to publish a Koranic based refutation of the Jihadist interpretation of Islam. Until that happens, Muslims around the world will not have a tangible means to separate themselves from the Jihadists in their mosques and communities.

/Quote


A bribe would be money well spent That or a well placed vision of Allah (fake projection or something).

[The PIT]

Early on, it says that God didn't "bother" to use his "Powers" to ensure that the previous scriptures were not altered. Only with the Koran did he finally decide it was necessary.

Well I'm convinced.

Errm Bullshit cause they have been altered.

So if I take the Koran and rewrite it I'll get blasted by lightning. Don't think so.

[Wombat]

It would be interesting to compare different Korans. Since they cannot be altered they should say the exact same thing.

They do, in Arabic. For Muslims, the Koran is to be read only in Arabic. Translation from Arabic->English is quite hard though (the reverse is very easy).

[The PIT]

They do, in Arabic. For Muslims, the Koran is to be read only in Arabic. Translation from Arabic->English is quite hard though (the reverse is very easy).

Got a Girl at work who can read Arabic but cannot translate it. So the question is can she really understand it??

[TransformX]

In every case, the terror is in response to a heavy-handed, arrogant approach and a refusal to listen to those with genuine grievances. If these guys have a real grievance, regional, national or international, even if it may be considered as imaginary, then the negotiation table, an open mind on both sides, and a spirit of give and take, is the only way to ensure that terror will not ensue.

You'll have to excuse me if I consider the pogroms in russia and other countries, a form of terror. To that I'll add the other pogroms (though other names were used) against jews in muslim countries. Now please, try to explain what heavy-handed, arrogant approach and a refusal to listen to those with genuine grievances approach did the Jews have in those countries to bring those pogroms on themselves?
Would you tell me what kind of heavy-handed, arrogant approach and a refusal to listen to those with genuine grievances did the people, and especially two 16 year old girls from Netanya, did to cause an Islamic-Jihad 18 years old murderer blow himself and cut their lives short, during the days this country is on the brink of a civil war due to us GIVING things with NOTHING in return?
Please, enlighten me.