A serious question for the old timers

[DGhost]

*cough*

and how, exactly, would it have been better if the other parties candidate won?

[Jessterw]

The corporations would be pillaging and then raping us.

[KvHagedorn]

That's about right..

[Umfriend]

Well Schmo, now you know it all!

[KvHagedorn]

Personally, I think middle managers are stupid because then upper managers feel their jobs are more secure. Corporate politics is a study in the race to find the worst depths of human nature.

[schmosef]

Well Schmo, now you know it all!

I haven't read any of KvH's OT posts. Not that I'm upset that he went OT. I just don't have time to read another one of his manifestos. Maybe later. Then I'll know it all!

[Fluff]

42

[Umfriend]

What is the question that that is an answer to again?

[Brian Ellis]

As I believe I'm probably the oldest old timer here, I'll stick my oar in here.

KvH's rant is sheer and utter bullshit which just displays an uncommon (thank goodness!) racial bigotry. I attended one of the best Public Schools (as opposed to the public schools) in Scotland and probably the UK. It was, and still is, renowned for its scholarship and sports achievements. If there was a multicultural society, it was here. Just to name a few backgrounds, I can remember boys who were:
Hindu and Muslim Indians (no Pakis, because India was whole in my schooldays); a Malayan; a couple of Filipinos; several Jews (native and refugees from Germany); a couple of Kenyans (black); a S. African (white); an Australian; a Lebanese; even a few English and some 1600 Protestant and Catholic Scottish boys (I may have missed a few out). I'll grant you, they were mostly, but not all, from privileged backgrounds, although some had bursaries (scholarships). The life there was harmonious in the extreme and all boys were equal to the others and were judged by their peers on their merits, not on their background. In fact, the diversity was great (how else would I have learnt abouth the Kharma Sutra at that age???) and there was a good two-way exchange between the boys.

I would say that, at least in a good part of Europe, at least, there are three major differences between then and now:

1) the adage spare the rod and spoil the child is no longer fashionable.
2) all children are NOT created equal and denying this has caused a distinct lowering of scholarship standards to the extent that many so-called university graduates are now quasi-illiterate with an IQ of less than 100. The apt children are brought down to the lowest common denominator, whether it be in scholarship or morals.
3) the uneducated masses (which includes at least 80% of politicians) expect everybody to be like them and cannot accept that diversity of culture is an asset, if properly handled, and not a hindrance.

[KvHagedorn]

Well, thanks a lot, Brian.

Point in fact.. your upper crusty school is NOT society at large, particularly today. You seem to be able to list off the exceptions to White Brits in ones and twos, which do not a subculture make. They would have HAD to blend in and accept YOUR culture, at least for the purposes of daily interaction. Where I grew up, there were small percentages of Blacks and Mexicans who mostly stuck with their own and interacted relatively peacefully with the other kids, but they were probably no more than 10% of the total of each. Later, working near a high school in a bigger city in the late 80s/early 90s, I witnessed daily incidents in an ongoing race war (ALWAYS blacks attacking whites) which needed police attention all the time. There are differences in group dynamics which occur when two groups are utterly different but close to equal in size, as was the case here.. and the people I'm talking about are hardly the sons of rich Nigerians/Indians or whatever idealistic setup you experienced. These are blacks who were incited to total hatred of whites by many factors, not the least of which were liberal attitudes that such hatred was all good and totally justified. Certain films also warped reality here, including one which inspired the near worship of Malcolm X, the black Hitler. For awhile there, blacks wore "X" caps and shirts and acted out agressively towards whites for absolutely no reason. This attitude remains today in large part. But you were a couple of generations, an economic class, and 4000 miles away from this experience, so of course you are more qualified than I am to comment upon it.. not. You really are detached from the world I'm talking about Brian, and so are most of you if you don't live in Southern/Urban America. So, though you might consider yourself quite worldly, in this case you don't have a clue.

[Sasq]

You really are detached from the world I'm talking about Brian, and so are most of you if you don't live in Southern/Urban America. So, though you might consider yourself quite worldly, in this case you don't have a clue.

Then FFS stop telling the rest of us, that do live elsewhere in the world, that all Multiculturalims is bad.

Maybe there are issues with its implimentation in your tiny corner of the planet - sorry Texas on the global scale of things is TINY btw - stop telling the rest of us we are to stupid to see the evils of Multiculturalism, when you happily pull the - 'oh but you don't live HERE' line when someone blows your pathetic attempt at racial bigotry out of the water.

[Brian Ellis]

Well, thanks a lot, Brian.

Point in fact.. your upper crusty school is NOT society at large, particularly today. You seem to be able to list off the exceptions to White Brits in ones and twos, which do not a subculture make. They would have HAD to blend in and accept YOUR culture, at least for the purposes of daily interaction.

Oh! How wrong you are! You really have no idea, do you? Yes, I did it ones and twos, but these were ones I could think of in my year, my immediate peers. This year was divided into four classes of 20-25 kids each and there was some intermingling of the classes for the specialist subjects. For example, the science stream merged two classes while the classics stream did likewise. My Russian tutorial merged all 4 classes, because there were only about 8 of us in the form, altogether, learning Russian. Furthermore, those of different cultures did not have ours imposed on them. For example, those who were non-Presbyterian could freely opt out of morning prayers but some had their own weekly or monthly meetings and we Presbyterians were able to attend those, as well, if we wanted. I even went to a Fundamentalist meeting a couple of times (was sickened!) but I have attended Anglican, Roman, Jewish and Muslim meetings in the school. Can't say I understood everything, but I did learn the tolerance that you lack. We also had a Culture Club (long before Boy George!) where kids of all backgrounds were invited to give lectures (after school) about their respective countries/cultures. Jewish boys were encouraged to wear their kippas, although few did as they were mostly non-Orthodox.

If there was a cultural divide in Edinburgh (possibly one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world) of the 30s/40s, it was economic and not racial. There were terrible slums in the old city and I still have visions of seeing barefoot children, in rags and even in the snow, rummaging through waste bins looking for a crust (or a few drops remaining in a beer bottle). You would gag if I described the Canongate tenements of that time. It was here that crime was rife and gangs formed and ordinary citizens would never venture there at night, despite heavy policing. In fact, it is almost exactly how you describe the difference between black and white. Yet these people were as white and Presbyterian as I. The difference is that they had little schooling in their misery and left school at 13 to go down the mines or work in the breweries for a shilling a day, most of which went on beer. Believe me, their's was a desperate life of dire poverty of soul, as well as economically, and very few were able to break through this barrier, at least until the war, because they had neither the means nor the will. It is in this background that extreme Communism took root amongst those forced to join a Trade Union.

Things improved somewhat after the war because army service (like Public Schools) is a great leveller. Slum clearance was implemented, but it took more than a move to a flat with cold water and electricity to change the minds and the quality of education did improve. I befriended, when I was a student, a guy from one of the poorer areas (he was the son of a woman who did cleaning for us when my mother was seriously ill). I think he was about 2 years younger. He asked me if I could help him as he wanted to do something with his life. Twice a week I gave him lessons to bring him into literacy and numeracy and eventually even into basic physics. He was able to get his School Cert in English, Maths and Physics and this got him into a good "sandwich" apprentice scheme with Ferranti ending in a Higher National Diploma in Engineering. But this pulling himself up by the bootlaces into a good position was rare and certainly not to the taste of his peers, to whom he was an outcast. But I cite this as an example where someone, by his own strong will, can break down the barriers and this could happen amongst some of the blacks you seem to despise. In fact, American history is full of examples of ex-slaves who have done this in one generation (e.g., Carver) or a few generations (Rice, Powell).

I maintain that economic divides are far stronger than cultural ones.

[rylan]

It works in some places, however in the US its getting shofed down our throats by the liberal media and the whole PC movement. Schools can't use discipline or even enforce rules without getting threatendd by lawsuits. Parents blame other sources like video games and movies and music, but they don't do crap to enforce limits with their kids. In this society, nobody is accountable anymore, its always that something else made them rob the store, or the kid was upset about something so they threw stuff at the teacher.

[Sasq]

It works in some places, however in the US its getting shofed down our throats by the liberal media and the whole PC movement. Schools can't use discipline or even enforce rules without getting threatendd by lawsuits. Parents blame other sources like video games and movies and music, but they don't do crap to enforce limits with their kids. In this society, nobody is accountable anymore, its always that something else made them rob the store, or the kid was upset about something so they threw stuff at the teacher.

Then the problem is with your current system - and yes, in Oz we have the same far left do-gooders. not in multiculturalism itself.

I was, a few years ago a teacher. left the IT world to interact with people, I do love teaching, pay sorta sucks
In Australia, if a kid is crying, you dare not hug them, or comfort them, even if they beg to be picked up. for fear of being arrested as a child abuser. that has Zero to do with multiculturalism, and a hell of a lot more to do with fear.

Over here, teaching was nice. I would have the kids climbing all over me, huging me. sitting on my lap during story time, and the parents thanking me for being so patient with their kids.

Realistically, the problems form when you let the pendulmn (sp?) swing to far one way (left or right)

Brian also has a point, I grew up in an English immigrant ghetto in my home town. employment rate was 20%, unemployment was 30%, single mothers (most starting at about 15 or 16) was 30% the rest were students.

The biggest problem was economic divides, not cultural ones.

P.S. Brian, I was that outcast who refused to accept his 'lot' in life as well.

[Wombat]

*cough*

and how, exactly, would it have been better if the other parties candidate won?

Point being, if this is the best the "old timers" have to offer, then they shouldn't be looking at the younger generations as the cause of failure.

But since you asked: We probably wouldn't be fighting a misguided war in Iraq, and we would have saved a lot more lives in the South because we wouldn't have had the FEMA/DHS/Brown f*ckup.