Oh, Canada.....

[Claymonkey]

I'm finding myself agreeing with everything Gurm just said..... I'm scared.

However, for most things I'm not sure how else we'd do things besided having a universal age of what we consider 'adult'. You have to have something and the alternative that would allow flexibility and how you'd test for that I don't even want to think about.

[Dr Mordrid]

My concern has nothing to do with "puritanism". If you knew my premarital history you'd realize that

My concern is twofold;

1. that young people these days think they know more about sex and interpersonal relationships than they actually do. Experience is one teacher, but a harsh one. The high birth rate among teens shows that and they don't need further encouragement.

2. predators who take advantage of #1, and they are legion.

This business may not seem this should be a big deal to an American from afar, but remember that those of us close to the Canadian border have to live with this as if it were happening in the US. You have no idea what it's like to have our sister city (Windsor, Ontario) have legal prostitution, legal sex clubs etc. plus 18 year old drinking when our legal age is 21.

This is already a problem with teens going to nude dance clubs then coming home and driving into ditches & trees, and it has resulted in more than a few fatalities. Needless ot say parents around here are sick and tired of it.

Better control border crossings by teens? Good luck. They can cross by land or rowboat, avoiding the "official" crossing as easily as illegals do. The problem is that they can get in the clubs once there, and we're getting no help from Canada enforcing that one.

Our neighbors, of all political stripes, are now concerned that some Canadian sex club will go juice in order to attract American minors and that this in turn will attract a less than savory crowd.

Negative feelings have been around for a while because of past "liberalizations" in Canada that have bit us in the arse, but then people read about the sex club ruling and got this on the front page of their Sunday Detroit News;

Is Windsor the Super Sin City?

Parents were not pleased.

These concerns may sound silly to some, but we learned long ago that overly generous expectations of Canada helping to prevent such problems will lead to disappointment. They could give a rip about the consequences so long as those American dollars keep crossing the border.

Dr. Mordrid

[Tjalfe]

.. and what would be your solution? raise the legal age for everything to match your own @ 21 years old?

seems that you are focusing on non existant problems to evade looking at your own

P.S.
drinking age in Ontario is 19, not 18

[Umfriend]

Drinking age in the Netherlands is 16 (beer. Strong drinks as of 18). Times used to be you could order a beer in a pub at 14. It's been like that for ages but it's becoming a problem since about 10 years or so I'm afraid.

[KvHagedorn]

Drinking age in the Netherlands is 16 (beer. Strong drinks as of 18). Times used to be you could order a beer in a pub at 14. It's been like that for ages but it's becoming a problem since about 10 years or so I'm afraid.

Here I was about to say that some cultures are more mature than others, but it seems like Umf of all people is pointing this out. Before there were as many extracultural influences, things were just fine, then?

When I was going to college in Chicago, drinking age was 21 in Illinois, but 18 in Wisconsin. Lots of people driving 80 miles to drink in Kenosha and driving back drunk, when if the ages were the same, they could have stayed in Chicago and taken public transit home.

I personally think casual sex clubs are a sleazy idea and do nothing but bring society down. Strip clubs? Titty bars? Same thing to a lesser degree. I'm not a puritan, but I agree with Gurm that sex is something you do with someone you care about, not the exotic dancer you met 10 minutes ago. Looking? Fine, but what's the point? You can look on the internet.

The reason the US is the way it is in many ways reflects the too-many different subcultures here. I am sick of people bringing up teen birthrates in the US when it is practically de rigeur for Mexicans to have babies in high school here. This is a separate culture (which is unfortunately influencing ours in this way) which has a completely different level of tolerance for this sort of thing. apparently only I have the nads to mention this here, though, or else the rest of you have no contact with this subculture, so you're just clueless about it. Go see a film called Mi Vida Loca and learn something. Otherwise, just quit being so PC to think it's a problem in the general population and can only be addressed as such.

[Umfriend]

It takes someone like you to find causality between any social development you deem is bad and the presence of non-native cultures.

Adolescent alcohol abuse started to be a problem first, that I've heard of anyway, in tight catholic (e.g. Volendam) and protestant (e.g. Urk) communities. In the bigger cities it's been a development that goes back, I think, to the 60s and 70s when, well, "extracultural" influences were hard to find (as if they are not now).

I am not yet sure what the drivers have been for our society to change as it has, but I do believe most has been inherent to native properties. I think (but am not sure and do not know how it should have worked either yet) that the massive unemployent that started in the 70s, lasted well throughout the 80's and the overwhelming growth from 1992/1995 did quite a bit though.

[Sasq]

Here I was about to say that some cultures are more mature than others, but it seems like Umf of all people is pointing this out. Before there were as many extracultural influences, things were just fine, then?

When I was going to college in Chicago, drinking age was 21 in Illinois, but 18 in Wisconsin. Lots of people driving 80 miles to drink in Kenosha and driving back drunk, when if the ages were the same, they could have stayed in Chicago and taken public transit home.

I personally think casual sex clubs are a sleazy idea and do nothing but bring society down. Strip clubs? Titty bars? Same thing to a lesser degree. I'm not a puritan, but I agree with Gurm that sex is something you do with someone you care about, not the exotic dancer you met 10 minutes ago. Looking? Fine, but what's the point? You can look on the internet.

The reason the US is the way it is in many ways reflects the too-many different subcultures here. I am sick of people bringing up teen birthrates in the US when it is practically de rigeur for Mexicans to have babies in high school here. This is a separate culture (which is unfortunately influencing ours in this way) which has a completely different level of tolerance for this sort of thing. apparently only I have the nads to mention this here, though, or else the rest of you have no contact with this subculture, so you're just clueless about it. Go see a film called Mi Vida Loca and learn something. Otherwise, just quit being so PC to think it's a problem in the general population and can only be addressed as such.

nothing to do with nads, KvH. we just know your a racist prick and the simple fact is, we don't agree with you.

[schmosef]

[KvHagedorn]

Maybe it's because you can't refute the facts, and are just pissed because they splashed all over your rose-colored glasses, so you feel you have to sling mud in return.

I didn't start this. Someone decried teen pregnancy as a generalized problem. It isn't, but apparently we are forced to see it as such because of PC fascism. The term "racist" is applied like "untermensch" was applied in Germany from 1933-1945. One is supposed to be afraid to argue when one is so labled. Go ahead and send me to a concentration camp then, mein führer.

[Sasq]

Maybe it's because you can't refute the facts, and are just pissed because they splashed all over your rose-colored glasses, so you feel you have to sling mud in return.

I didn't start this. Someone decried teen pregnancy as a generalized problem. It isn't, but apparently we are forced to see it as such because of PC fascism. The term "racist" is applied like "untermensch" was applied in Germany from 1933-1945. One is supposed to be afraid to argue when one is so labled. Go ahead and send me to a concentration camp then, mein führer.

nope kvh, the facts are, your just pissed they are getting ass and your not.
No damn rose tinted glasses about it. they are getting the ass you think you deserve. Time to grow up, and face reality that, well they are getting ass, because well, they can, you can't.

Now, STFU about your gripe with them.

[KvHagedorn]

And how would you know? Getting much yourself? You seem pretty hostile there..

It's true, my standards range a bit higher than "anything that moves," so yes, I am probably getting less than they are.

My gripe is that the facts as put forth about teen pregnancy are not being argued fairly because they are not allowed to be, for the PC peer-pressure reason you've just shown. I'm not griping about them, just at having the numbers skewed because of PC folks not taking into account the very real differences in the level of acceptance of teen pregnancies among a different subculture. Canadians seem to think themselves better because they have a lower rate, but if there was a large Mexican community there, the numbers would be a lot closer.

You want real references? I already gave you one.. Mi Vida Loca, a film which was a pretty accurate picture of their culture, as I can attest from personal experience, and one comment on IMDB also relates:

True Enough, 14 May 2002
10/10
Author: castro_la_bonita77 from Arizona

It is so much like the world I grew up in during my high school years that there isn't a character in the movie I can't identify with. Everytime I watch it, it's like I'm watching a home video of me and my old friends....

This film pertains mainly to inner city gangs, but the teen pregnancy part is similar in the rest of Mexican-American experience. I knew someone personally who had two kids by two different girls by the time he was 17. Hell, I WORK with a guy who was in attendance at his own father's high school graduation! On a job once, I was wiring a house when I overheard a conversation between two Mexican air-conditioning contractors. The older of the two was just listening to the other one (I'd guess he was about 17) tell his story. What I overheard was almost precisely this: "yeah I tried to get this one girl pregnant but it didn't work out, so now I'm trying it with that girl you saw.."

This is real life, buddy. It's not where you are, but it is here, so just for the sake of broadening your perspectives, I'm letting you know. A whole lot of people have no clue about this, especially white-collar people working outside the southwestern US.

Here's an article on the subject:

http://www.hartfordadvocate.com/gbase/News/content?oid=oid%3A1229

[Sasq]

And how would you know? Getting much yourself? You seem pretty hostile there..

It's true, my standards range a bit higher than "anything that moves," so yes, I am probably getting less than they are.

My gripe is that the facts as put forth about teen pregnancy are not being argued fairly because they are not allowed to be, for the PC peer-pressure reason you've just shown. I'm not griping about them, just at having the numbers skewed because of PC folks not taking into account the very real differences in the level of acceptance of teen pregnancies among a different subculture. Canadians seem to think themselves better because they have a lower rate, but if there was a large Mexican community there, the numbers would be a lot closer.

You want real references? I already gave you one.. Mi Vida Loca, a film which was a pretty accurate picture of their culture, as I can attest from personal experience, and one comment on IMDB also relates:



This film pertains mainly to inner city gangs, but the teen pregnancy part is similar in the rest of Mexican-American experience. I knew someone personally who had two kids by two different girls by the time he was 17. Hell, I WORK with a guy who was in attendance at his own father's high school graduation! On a job once, I was wiring a house when I overheard a conversation between two Mexican air-conditioning contractors. The older of the two was just listening to the other one (I'd guess he was about 17) tell his story. What I overheard was almost precisely this: "yeah I tried to get this one girl pregnant but it didn't work out, so now I'm trying it with that girl you saw.."

This is real life, buddy. It's not where you are, but it is here, so just for the sake of broadening your perspectives, I'm letting you know. A whole lot of people have no clue about this, especially white-collar people working outside the southwestern US.

Here's an article on the subject:
http://www.hartfordadvocate.com/gbas...oid=oid%3A1229

and Just so as you know, we have all heard your god damn piece on mexicans, multiculturalism, the fact that interracial marriages are an abomination, and we are all F*CKING sick of it.

You don't know jack shit about anything outside the south western US. and quite frankly what you know about the SW US the rest of us don't care. your a small minded biggot. who quite frankly doesn't know his mouth from his ass.

Again, we don't care about your opinion on multiculturalism. Share it again, and their will be a size 12 boot stamp on your ass as I kick you out the door. this has nothing to do with PC, and everything to do with not accepting small minded biggots. do I make myself clear

[Brian Ellis]

and Just so as you know, we have all heard your god damn piece on mexicans, multiculturalism, the fact that interracial marriages are an abomination, and we are all F*CKING sick of it.

You don't know jack shit about anything outside the south western US. and quite frankly what you know about the SW US the rest of us don't care. your a small minded biggot. who quite frankly doesn't know his mouth from his ass.

Again, we don't care about your opinion on multiculturalism. Share it again, and their will be a size 12 boot stamp on your ass as I kick you out the door. this has nothing to do with PC, and everything to do with not accepting small minded biggots. do I make myself clear

[agallag]

Thanks for that rebuttal Dan. Perfect.

By the way KvH, that conversation you overheard between the two mexicans? I've heard that same converstation, almost verbatim, several times myself. Those having the conversation... were white.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

[schmosef]

(oh, i'm gonna get soooo flamed for this...)

let's take a step back for a moment.

let's say that murc is a virtual multicultural society.

everyone is an immigrant.

some of us immigrants share the same values, especially our rosy view on multiculturalism in general.

some of us don't.

to me, multiculturalism says that all cultures are welcome and conformity is not a requirement of participation in the society or sharing of its benefits. i personally think that murc gains a lot of strength from its wide variety of members and their disparate backgrounds.

kvh chooses not to conform. his non conformance is being deemed detrimental to the society at large because it detracts from other members ability to enjoy their participation therein.

what is an appropriate mechanism for the great multicultural society to deal with kvh?

if sasq's promise to ban kvh for not conforming is appropriate then how is kvh's desire to forcibly evict "troublesome immigrants" from american society not appropriate?

let us think on that shall we...

(flame on... oh dear!)