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  • U have "Free Will"? Maybe not....

    Free will - you only think you have it

    04 May 2006
    New Scientist Print Edition

    "WE MUST believe in free will, we have no choice," the novelist Isaac Bashevis Singer once said. He might as well have said, "We must believe in quantum mechanics, we have no choice," if two new studies are anything to go by.

    Early last month, a Nobel laureate physicist finished polishing up his theory that a deeper, deterministic reality underlies the apparent uncertainty of quantum mechanics. A week after he announced it, two eminent mathematicians showed that the theory has profound implications beyond physics: abandoning the uncertainty of quantum physics means we must give up the cherished notion that we have free will. The mathematicians believe the physicist is wrong.

    "It's striking that we have one of the greatest scientists of our generation pitted against two of the world's greatest mathematicians," says Hans Halvorson, a philosopher of physics at Princeton University.

    Quantum mechanics is widely accepted by physicists, but is full of apparent paradoxes, which made Einstein deeply uncomfortable and have never been resolved. For instance, you cannot ask what the spin of a particle was before you made an observation of it - quantum mechanics says the spin was undetermined. And you cannot predict the outcome of an experiment; you can only estimate the probability of getting a certain result.

    "Quantum mechanics works wonderfully well, but it's not complete," says Gerard 't Hooft of Utrecht University in the Netherlands, who won the Nobel prize for physics in 1999 for laying the mathematical foundations for the standard model of particle physics. One major reason why many physicists, including 't Hooft, yearn for a deeper view of reality than quantum mechanics can offer is their failure so far to unite quantum theory with general relativity and its description of gravity, despite enormous effort. "A radical change is needed," says 't Hooft.

    For more than a decade now, 't Hooft has been working on the idea that there is a hidden layer of reality at scales smaller than the so-called Planck length of 10-35 metres. 't Hooft has developed a mathematical model to support this notion. At this deeper level, he says, we cannot talk of particles or waves to describe reality, so he defines entities called "states" that have energy. In his model, these states behave predictably according to deterministic laws, so it is theoretically possible to keep tabs on them.

    However, the calculations show that individual states can be tracked for only about 10-43 seconds, after which many states coalesce into one final state, which is what creates the quantum mechanical uncertainty. Our measurements illuminate these final states, but because the prior information is lost, we can't recreate their precise history.

    While 't Hooft's initial theory explained most quantum mechanical oddities, such as the impossibility of precisely measuring both the location and momentum of a particle, it had a major stumbling block - the states could end up with negative energy, which is physically impossible. Now, 't Hooft has worked out a solution that overcomes this problem, preventing the states from having negative energy. "It was an obnoxious difficulty," he says. "But having solved it I am more and more convinced that this is the right approach."

    Essentially, 't Hooft is saying that while particles in quantum mechanics seem to behave unpredictably, if we could track the underlying states, we can predict the behaviour of particles.

    Others are impressed. "This is a very beautiful theory that tells us about the world on the smallest scales," says physicist Willem de Muynck at Eindhoven University of Technology in the Netherlands. "But these are scales that current experiments cannot reach, so if anything the theory is before its time."

    As enticing as 't Hooft's theory may be to physicists, it has an unexpected and potentially frightful consequence for the rest of us. Mathematicians John Conway and Simon Kochen, both at Princeton University, say that any deterministic theory underlying quantum mechanics robs us of our free will.

    "When you choose to eat the chocolate cake or the plain one, are you really free to decide?" asks Conway. In other words, could someone who has been tracking all the particle interactions in the universe predict with perfect accuracy the cake you will pick? The answer, it seems, depends on whether quantum mechanics' inherent uncertainty is the correct description of reality or 't Hooft is right in saying that beneath that uncertainty there is a deterministic order.

    Conway and Kochen explored the implications of 't Hooft's theory by looking at what happens when you measure the spin of a particle. Spin is always measured along three perpendicular axes. For a spherical particle, the particular axes that you choose and the order in which you carry out the measurements are up to you. But are your choices a matter of free will, or are they predetermined?

    What the mathematicians proved is this: if you have the slightest freedom to choose the axes and order of measurement, then particles everywhere must also have the same degree of freedom. That means they can behave unpredictably. However, if particles have no freedom, as implied by 't Hooft's theory, the mathematicians proved that you have no real say in the choice of axes and order of measurement. In other words, deterministic particles put an end to free will.

    Arguments about free will are as old as philosophy itself, and ever since quantum mechanics was proposed people have attempted to connect free will to the indeterminacy at the heart of this theory. "We're proud because this is the first solid proof relating these issues," says Conway.

    Kochen and Conway stress that their theorem doesn't disprove 't Hooft's theory. It simply states that if his theory is true, our actions cannot be free. And they admit that there's no way for us to tell. "Our lives could be like the second showing of a movie - all actions play out as though they are free, but that freedom is an illusion," says Kochen.

    Since the mathematicians believe that we have free will, it follows for them that 't Hooft's theory must be wrong. "We have to believe in free will to do anything," says Conway. "I believe I am free to drink this cup of coffee, or throw it across the room. I believe I am free in choosing to have this conversation."

    Halvorson says the debate really boils down to a matter of personal taste. "Kochen and Conway can't tolerate the idea that our future may already be settled," he says, "but people like 't Hooft and Einstein find the notion that the universe can't be completely described by physics just as disturbing."

    For philosophers, both arguments can be troubling. "Quantum randomness as the basis of free will doesn't really give us control over our actions," says Tim Maudlin, a philosopher of physics at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey. "We're either deterministic machines, or we're random machines. That's not much of a choice."

    Halvorson, however, welcomes the work by 't Hooft, Conway and Kochen. "Philosophy has separated itself from science for far too long," he says. "There are very important questions to be asked about free will, and maybe physics can answer them."
    Hmmmmm........

    Dr. Mordrid
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    They lost me at the bus stop.

    Kevin

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    • #3
      Some mathematicians should have been awake at their biology lessons
      If there's artificial intelligence, there's bound to be some artificial stupidity.

      Jeremy Clarkson "806 brake horsepower..and that on that limp wrist faerie liquid the Americans call petrol, if you run it on the more explosive jungle juice we have in Europe you'd be getting 850 brake horsepower..."

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      • #4
        Biology is determined by chemistry which is determined by physics. People keep putting it on us though, saying humans this, humans that. It's the universe that is deterministic, we just happen to be a part of the universe.

        It doesn't mean you or I can't stop believing I have some sort of free will. Even if I dont that shouldn't matter because if I believe I do or believe I don't, it's already been determined!

        I also think it makes the universe that much more beautiful to be a giant machine that happened to create all of this. People have this notion that turning love and soul and stuff like that into science some how takes away from life. I completely disagree and say it makes it so much more wonderful. Think of everything that has to happen chemically, physically, in space-time for you to have feelings for your loved one vs saying you love someone just because of some magic - now that's lame and boring.
        Gigabyte GA-K8N Ultra 9, Opteron 170 Denmark 2x2Ghz, 2 GB Corsair XMS, Gigabyte 6600, Gentoo Linux
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        "if I said you had a beautiful body would you take your pants off and dance around a bit?" --Zapp Brannigan

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        • #5
          Originally posted by TnT
          Biology is determined by chemistry which is determined by physics. People keep putting it on us though, saying humans this, humans that. It's the universe that is deterministic, we just happen to be a part of the universe.
          So instead of "God made me do it" you say "The univerese made me do it" ?

          Originally posted by TnT

          It doesn't mean you or I can't stop believing I have some sort of free will. Even if I dont that shouldn't matter because if I believe I do or believe I don't, it's already been determined!

          I also think it makes the universe that much more beautiful to be a giant machine that happened to create all of this. People have this notion that turning love and soul and stuff like that into science some how takes away from life. I completely disagree and say it makes it so much more wonderful. Think of everything that has to happen chemically, physically, in space-time for you to have feelings for your loved one vs saying you love someone just because of some magic - now that's lame and boring.
          you and those scientists make the assumption that just because something can be predicted to happen that everything is predetermind.

          It's a bit like this "We know the exact temperature that water will boil if you heat it, so that means its preordained when everybody is going to making coffey"

          to really make everything "already determined" you would also have to disable "the random factor" and that opens up a whole new can of worms
          If there's artificial intelligence, there's bound to be some artificial stupidity.

          Jeremy Clarkson "806 brake horsepower..and that on that limp wrist faerie liquid the Americans call petrol, if you run it on the more explosive jungle juice we have in Europe you'd be getting 850 brake horsepower..."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Technoid
            you and those scientists make the assumption that just because something can be predicted to happen that everything is predetermind.
            No. The assumption is that if you can not find anything that you can not predict by definition, then, all is predetermined. I guess it is well excepted that you can not predict the state of the earth in 50 years simply because the processes involved are too complex. That does not make it random though. One of the things that could make it random is if there is a part of the process that there is no way to predict because it is random.

            We had such a thing with quantum physics but some of my countrymen now have a theory that could, in principle, predict things that were not predictable, accoriding to theory, by definition.

            to really make everything "already determined" you would also have to disable "the random factor" and that opens up a whole new can of worms
            And that is exactly what 't Hooft aledgedly has done. Take it up with him.
            Join MURCs Distributed Computing effort for Rosetta@Home and help fight Alzheimers, Cancer, Mad Cow disease and rising oil prices.
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            • #7
              The logical rejoinder to predestination, whether it be to God's will or something inanimate (and I use the last word advisedly, animus being the Latin for 'soul'), is that nothing we can do can change the future. That means that anyone who commits any crime cannot help himself. He should therefore not be punished, except that the judge sentencing him is predestined to do so. You can see where this leading: no one, no animal, no vegetable has any freedom of choice. Without such freedom, we cannot sin. If sin doesn't exist, then the whole concept of law and our sense of morality is a shambles. Cartesian!
              Brian (the devil incarnate)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Technoid
                So instead of "God made me do it" you say "The univerese made me do it" ?
                Unlike some people who believe in God and say crap like that, the predetermined state of the universe != the will of some higher power. It just means that from the point of the big bang (or even before then, wait, is that possible) everything was set in motion to be how it is today. As Brian said, the punishment laid down by our laws is just another piece of that machine and being sent to prison is a function of the machine.

                you and those scientists make the assumption that just because something can be predicted to happen that everything is predetermind.

                It's a bit like this "We know the exact temperature that water will boil if you heat it, so that means its preordained when everybody is going to making coffey"

                to really make everything "already determined" you would also have to disable "the random factor" and that opens up a whole new can of worms
                Again predetermined != predictable. We can't even predict simple stuff, as humans, a very, very small part of the universe, we will never be able to predict the universes future course.

                I guess the term determined is not that great. Determined tends to connotate the idea that things are put in place by something else. As I understand it is more of a machine that has perfectly working functions and motors (unlike our machines). As soon as the start button is hit every state in the future has been set, but not yet played out.

                Let me ask you this. If an exact duplicate of our universe was created, would future events turn out the same way in both universes?

                On a related side note, there are theories that can go in conjunction with the determined universe such as the multiverse. With an infinitely sized universe and consistent spread of energy with a finite number of states, then every single possibility of the universe is played out. So there is many sets of you and me out there on the same dimension just in a different areas of the universe.
                Gigabyte GA-K8N Ultra 9, Opteron 170 Denmark 2x2Ghz, 2 GB Corsair XMS, Gigabyte 6600, Gentoo Linux
                Motion Computing M1400 -- Tablet PC, Ubuntu Linux

                "if I said you had a beautiful body would you take your pants off and dance around a bit?" --Zapp Brannigan

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