Police kill man holding sword

[Dr Mordrid]

Even Tazers aren't 100%

Last summer we had a case in the Detroit area where they Tazered a large man (>300 lbs) and it just pissed him off more. He pulled out the electrode and went after the cops with a butcher knife. Boom.

Dr. Mordrid

[Nowhere]

It's not that I question use of force by policemen when they are in danger - my position is the same as in road pursuits discussed some time ago - when you are doing something like this, you have to understand the possible consequences.

I was just wonderingasking about leg shots...I am just under impression that "Rambo-like" behaviour after beeing shot isn't very common...

[Dr Mordrid]

That impression is very wrong. 25+ years in city emergency rooms and experience taught me that the hard way.

I've even seen such an event first hand when rival biker gangs used our ER and radiology dept. for a running firefight. A sheriffs deputy shot one in the hip & he kept on shooting back, even though he was laying on the floor. One of our private secuity agents ended it with a head shot. Just another Saturday night in the ER

In the firefight I was involved in at my parents farm the issue wasn't allowed to go that far. The intruder was aiming at my dad from behind, so he caught a 12ga 500 grain sabot square in the chest. No 2nd chance for him.

Dr. Mordrid

[Nowhere]

Ah, I see.

But, but...you want to tell me all those movies aren't as idiotic as I thought after all?

BTW Doc, you sometimes write about non-lethal weaponry to be used in military. But I guess it could find also some use in Police. Will it?

[MultimediaMan]

When this sort of thing happens it tough on everyone: think if the poor cop who ended the situation.

Real Life is not the Sims.

The trouble with all "less-than-lethal" weapons is that they are nowhere near as easy to use, and nowhere near as reliable as their "lethal" predecessors at ending a confrontation. They also require a great deal more training to use: the odd side effect of this is that while training on "less-than-lethal" weapons becomes more and more common, the more it becomes apparent that the sidearms police are carrying are not lethal enough. Most police now are replacing the shotgun with a 9mm or 5.56mm carbine.

It is accepted by the LE community that anyone threatening anyone else with so much a butterknife in their hand within 21' is an immediate threat. The cops were taking a huge personal risk be even trying to use a beanbag on the guy: don't be surprised to see them get a commendation for the attempt.

The idea of shoot to wound is a lot like like running up to a wild tiger and tweaking his nose: things are different when you are pumped full of adrenaline and endorphins.

[Dr Mordrid]

save for changing from shotguns to 9mm pistols.

That makes no sense at all given that sabot loads can smoke through Kevlar that will stop a 9mm cold. The only problem might be if the perp is wearing ceramic or metal plate armor under the Kevlar. Hell....some magnum hardened sabots can shatter a car engine

Adding carbines does make sense, but I prefer .30cal/7.62mm for penetrating ceramic/metal armor at close range.

Dr. Mordrid

[Nowhere]

Reminds me "funny" stories friend of mine told me about guns our police uses (he knows a few policeman, most of things below are local thing as you'll notice). Now, I can't tell you/don't remember names of guns or their caliber...but here goes:

1) Old type of pistol, practically not used now. It uses something that's basically a modified bullet/catridge from Kalashnikov. Effect: you can kill up to 3 people with one shot if they are in a row. Not very usefull gun in crowded places...

2) On the other end of the scale: a bit newer weapon that is also rarely used now, though still a bit. Its bullet is extremelly weak. Local story: there was some dog locked in a big open cage that went sick (rabies). Was barking constantly, neighbours reported it during night, Police came to investigate. Since the veterinarian would come in the morning or at least some time from then, the owner, well aware what would happen to the dog, proposed that policemen can kill it. One of them basically put a gun to the dog's head. He shot. Barking stopped. When he was going away, he heard squeking (or something, translation escaped me). The dog was still alive...

3) Police here is also equipped with locally designed (long time ago...40 years or so) submachineguns (think Uzi, but of course they look different). Which have one flaw...the switch from semi to auto isn't 100% reliable. So, the story: police was chasing 2 people escaping through the field, one of policemans wanted to shoot one warning shot in the air. He emptied the magazine. Effect: the two that were running are standing with their arms in the air, not even looking back ("WTF?! Their shooting at us from machinegun?!" ) and the policeman that shoot...doesn't care, he stares at gun thinking WTF just happened.

4) And a gun that is currently most common. Overall quite good, in comparison with above. But it's not exactly semiautomatic - you have to repeat (hope this translation of PL term makes sense...) it on average every 2 shots...

[Dr Mordrid]

All why I like streetsweepers (shotguns with high capacity magazines). High reliability and tons of short range stopping power. With sabots it has enough to drop a bear.

Ithica:


Remington:


USAS-12:


99% of the time baddies take one look at that huge hole & crap their drawers.

The rest you perforate

Dr. Mordrid

[Mehen]

Isn't a streetsweeper basically what the HWG in Team Fortress had?

[Dr Mordrid]

'Streetsweeper" is a generic term for any high capacity combat shotgun. The drum-barreled version originated with the Rhodesian designed DAO-12 Street Sweeper/Procta/Striker semi-automatic shotgun;



IIRC HWG used a mini-gun similar to that used by Blaine in "Predator";



which is a multi-barreled machine gun. It is similar in concept, but by no means power, to the 30mm GAU-8/A Avenger cannon in the nose of an A010 Warthog 'tank-buster';



In either case the best place to be is behind them

DAMN!! Those mini-guns are FUN-TO-SHOOT

Dr. Mordrid

[az]

Fascinating. We went from a thread about a member of this forum moaning the death of an acquaintance by gunfire to shouting which guns are the most fun to kill people with.

[Dr Mordrid]

Actually it's loads of fun turning concrete blocks back to dust with 'em

As they say on 'Mythbusters'; "Jamie wants BOOM"

De. Mordrid

[Mehen]

well, I don't remember quake TF that much, but in TFC it fired shotgun style shells, but looked like that one above - not sure if such a thing exists.

[agallag]

Fun snippit from Wikipedia. Gotta love the A-10.

Trivia

The GAU-8/A 30 mm Avenger cannon is said to produce almost the same amount of force as one of the A-10's engines, leading to a persistent military legend that if enough bullets could be carried and fired in a long burst, the plane would stop flying (or move backwards, in some versions of the legend). Using the specs from the GAU-8/A product homepage, the recoil force of the GAU-8/A is measured to an average of 10,000 lbf (45 kN). While the recoil force is considerable, the cannon is employed only in short bursts to protect the barrel cluster from overheating. Even if both engines were stopped and the jet was gliding unpowered, firing the cannon will not bring it to a stop in midair, only slow it down much in the same manner as if an airbrake was deployed.

Of further note on the impressive cannon recoil force, the A-10's nosewheel gear assembly is situated in the less than optimal off-center-line position (immediately starboard of the gun). This design feature was necessary to accommodate the GAU-8 in the center-line position as off-center placement would result in potentially catastrophic yaw forces on firing the cannon.

[Dr Mordrid]

Yup, it's a classic example of design overkill, but that's one reason why the pilots love it. Another is that the cockpit is nearly surrounded by a titanium/armor 'bathtub', protecting them more than anything this side of an M1-A1 tank. It also has multiple redundant hydraulics and electronics.

Over the years many A-10's have returned missing parts of wings and/or tails, riddled with holes or on one mangled engine but they still delivered their pilot back to his/her family.

Its designers have a lot to be proud of.

Funny thing is that many in the USAF didn't want the A-10, feeling that they were the fighter/bomber corps and that close air support of ground troops & tank-busting wasn't their 'mission'.

Thankfully wiser heads prevailed.

Dr. Mordrid