The "Stand your Ground" doctrine....

[MultimediaMan]

Or not, you don't know what would have happend, and you never will.

Well actually I do know: he caved pretty quickly with three of us on him. It is simply a matter of how it was done.

Let's go over this again: What happened back in 1994 was personally dangerous to me, because as you said, we didn't know what we were up against, but we did know it was three to one in our favor. We abandoned our place of safety to intercede on behalf of another person. If he had had a knife or a gun things could have been much worse for us, but he didn't have either.

Personally I would have liked the odds of "11" to one... adding the eight rounds in my Caspian Arms .45ACP shorty - we would not have abandoned our personal safety (distance), and our odds would have been measurably better if he did end up having a knife or a gun.

Would you rather be over-prepared or under-prepared?

I would suggest at this point, that even if you have no intention of carrying a firearm for personal protection, that you go ahead and take the course. You'll learn a lot.

[KvHagedorn]

What exactly would your plan have been in that instance, MMM? Would you have pulled your gun on him and said "freeze!" Or just blown him away? If he had had a weapon (or not) he could have grabbed her and used her as a human shield, and someone probably would have gotten killed.

[Dr Mordrid]

What if this "gang of ~ 6-7 punks" had been armed too?
And why weren't they?

Dunno or care why they weren't armed. If they had been I'd not have asked first but fired on sight.

[MultimediaMan]

Fair question.

We were leaving as we saw the altercation. She fell down about 5 feet in front of, and 6-7 feet to my left (IIRC, the room she was heading for was fairly close to where we were parked. Graham and myself only had to take three or four steps to get between the creep and the girl. My dad had to go around the front of the truck (Chevy Suburban). This would not have been a human shield situation in any case, (if anyone was in this situation, it was us); He was up, she was down, and we were in the middle, but not directly in the their path.

What would I have done? Getting the weapon out and in a useful condition for firing takes time. He was walking fast enough to where he would have been on her had we not stood in his path. I probably would not have walked forward trying to draw the pistol at the same time. I can't speak for Graham, but he was the one who got there first - Graham stood in his path. then sidestepped when he tried to go around to the right, when the creep tried to push him aside Graham took his arm and never let go. Once we started on him, he folded rather quickly. I don't recall a single blow being delivered...just a lot of weight was put on him, forcing him down. Again, if he would have had a knife he could have disemboweled any one of us. If he had a gun, anyone could have been shot, including the creep himself.

So...and this is speculating, Graham would still have gone where he did, and so would have my father. Figure about the time I had the pistol out and him boresighted I would have told the creep to "Stop" first, but I certainly would not have fired on him unless I saw he was going to hit Graham or the girl again; even in his state, he could "Se habla .45ACP". Once we started on him, he folded rather quickly. I don't recall a single blow being delivered...we simply dragged him down, and he went down in a righthand spiral: just a lot of weight was put on him, forcing him down. Again, if he would have had a knife he could have disemboweled any one of us. If he had a gun, anyone could have been shot.

Either way, the situation would have been under better control than the brief dogpile that ensued. It would have been the girl down, Graham in front of the girl, and the guy almost directly in front of me before "Stop" would have been able to have been uttered.
He would have had two avenues of escape (back the way he came from, or Left toward the driveway towards the street), and no path to the girl. He would have seen himself facing an armed opponent to his right, and an opponent larger than himself in front of him and another closing from his 1 O'clock.

I've thought about this event quite a few times over the years, it was cool then: something to talk about over dinner. But now it's to remind myself to not do again.

[KvHagedorn]

If you were ever in the situation again and didn't do just what you did there, you would probably get sick at not having helped her. I couldn't just stand by and let that happen.

[Dr Mordrid]

Me either. He'd be hamburger one way or another.

[High_Jumbllama]

There's a good reason you don't see any published statistics on people who have had to defend themselves: these tend to be careful people. Why? Because the one thing they hammer into you during a training course is how to avoid situations which could end in a confrontation.

You don't carry a gun and go on behaving like someone who doesn't: if you do you are asking for trouble. Carrying a gun is as much a reminder to be mindful as it is a tool for protection.

There was one situation I can recall back in September of 1994, in OKC ironically, which comes to mind as one time the it would have benefited having a pistol with me, right then, right there.

My father, myself and a friend had gone to OKC for a gunshow off all things. We were staying a lo-tel motel close to I40 because it was only a block or so from the site of the show.

Anyway, we had just finished setting up our friend's display at the show and were swinging by our rooms to change into cleaner clothes before going for a bite to eat. In the parking lot, a guy was walking after his girlfriend, repeatedly striking her over the head with his hand "Brain Busters", yelling expletives and doggedly pursuing her - he looked intoxicated. She was obviously trying to get away from the creep.

She wasn't ten feet from me when he punched her hard enough from behind to hear the air rush out of her lungs. She also fell forward into the asphalt and was scuffed up as a result. It took the three of us putting ourselves physically between him and her for the ****ole to realize we weren't going to let the abuse continue. He wasn't drunk... he was high. He also thought he could take all three of us. About three minutes into that episode, the motel manager saw what was going on and called OKCPD to the scene. We gave our statements, the ****ole was cuffed and stuffed, while the girl got treated on the scene for contusions and abrasions - she didn't take the offer of a trip to the emergency room. The cop DID however take pictures of her, and the guy's bruised hands. He had really been working her over. We never did get subpoenaed to appear.

If I had a pistol right then and there, Mr. ****ole would have been subdued much more quickly than three men wrestling him down until one of us could put a knee down in the middle of his back - and with much greater safety for all involved.

One non-physical thing to be warry of in a domestic violence situation is what if the victim turns on you, the helper? My cousin's husband started to intervene. Just yelling at the guy who was hitting on and screaming at his girlfriend. The girfriend start yelling at him intead. WTF!?

[Dr Mordrid]

Sigh....seen it often in the ER

More than a few women have a strong masochistic streak; they like it.

[MultimediaMan]

One non-physical thing to be warry of in a domestic violence situation is what if the victim turns on you, the helper? My cousin's husband started to intervene. Just yelling at the guy who was hitting on and screaming at his girlfriend. The girfriend start yelling at him intead. WTF!?

In hindsight, that didn't seem to be the case, although she was leaving the situation, she was very much cowed by her attacker...she didn't want anything to do with him, yet did not defend herself other than to walk away: this is classic behavior for a battered person. I didn't know it then, though.

Makes me wonder how she's doing now...

[cjolley]

I had a friend that helped in a situation like that and got a gin bottle to the back of the head by the girl for his troubles.
So, while I think helping is the right thing to do, watch your back.

[cjolley]

Bah.
You gun guys are so out of step with current defensive tech:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/19/ap/strange/mainD8IUQH8G7.shtml

[Dr Mordrid]

[Byock]

Great story!

[MultimediaMan]

Well, you know what they say: Judge a man not by his tools but his ability to use what he has...

The perp is gonna have a real hard time explaining this to his fellow inmates:

"Gee, that's a nasty thing on yo head, man; What did they take you down with? A Nightstick, Flashlight, Baton?"

"Mott's"

"Mott's? What's dat?"

"Applesauce..."

"You mean like baby food? Yo Anton...get a load a this; newbie here got taken down by someone with jar of baby food..."

"It was a big jar of applesauce..."

"Suuuure it was..."

[Byock]

yup, he is going to be the whipping boy with that story.