US: vaccination vs. autism?

[Dr Mordrid]

All that shows is the possibility of a genetic predisposition that the thimerosal may activate.

The fact remains that there is evidence, admittedly anecdotal, that large groups who have not been vaccinated have little or no autisim...the Ahmish for one. Congress has decided to settle it once and for all by doing a comprehensive study of those communities, which I think is a good thing.

[James_D]

I really dont understand you Dr. Mordrid, it puzzles me a bit that you like to appear openminded and science interrested when using the Amish example seems to be very dogdy scientifically. First of all the Amish people have a very different lifestyle from the regular american. They mostly dont use pesticides, which also may influence eg. a pregnant woman. etc etc. So to single out the difference in Autism to one parameter, the vaccination seems to be flawed scientific thinking, and it just reminds me of the the tylenol scare you ran.

JD.

[Dr Mordrid]

The fact that their lifestyle is relatively pristeen is a plus in that it reduces the number of environmental factors to be adjusted for in the study, giving them a baseline of autism in an isolated population. From here they can then ask 'why' nearby population differ, if they do.

As for Tylenol; it's dangers are being taken seriously by physicians here after several recent studies. That you choose not to isn't our problem

[James_D]

Yes very true, but too many variables, reduces the reliability of a study. and the amish live a much more healthy life than the reg. american, and for comparing them with the american, it would be too many factors to take in, like that they eat food with out preservatives, less sugar in diet, dont eat meat pumped on growth hormones, etc etc etc

JD

Edit: I see that you updated you post, so i will update mine as well, I would like to challenge you to show us how you think a study could be done, what kind of study would you use, and what would be your reference group / controll group and what would be you trial group.
Because the way you are refering to the amish it seems you would like to them in an adhoc study, and if you want to do that then there are just to many diff. in life style, enviroment, and social life. for comparing them with americans. But if you are thinking of double blind study which are the most reliable studies then you would have to inoculate the amish for it to be reliable, if not its just to many uncertainties.

[Dr Mordrid]

In searching for a cause you still need that baseline level in an isolated population as a jumping off point. Without it other studies rely too much on a supposition of what that level is.

We won't know if that difference exists without this study, and Congress has left up to the NIH /CDC to figure out the mechanics. I'm sure they're better at it than either of us..

As carpenters say; measure twice, cut once. More information is better.

[James_D]

Yup there are some very bright colleagues of mine working at the CDC, but I do trials in my practice so I do know the basics behind on how to perform trials.

And untill they acutally have come up with something that point in either way, this will still be scaremongering, esp since previous trials have showed neg. results.


JD.

[Jammrock]

And the math says that your son may not have received it, and that at his current age you could have made sure he never did, since the vaccines were available. Thimerosal has not been a "common preservative" in child vaccines for 3 years - it has been replaced (or preservatives eliminated entirely, depending on the vaccine). If he were a little younger we could be certain that he didn't receive any,unless your doctor ignored expiration dates. Seems like you're okay to take your daughter in for those vaccinations now.

Personally, I've dug into this issue a good bit, and I strongly doubt a vaccination link to autism. It looks to be part hyper-diagnosis, part previous undiagnosis, and an increase of a genetically-influenced defect - notice how the autism rates in the children of Silicon Valley are far above the national average. Also, if a child has autism, their siblings are 25 times more likely to have it than the national average - and if an autistic child has an identical twin, that twin has a 90% chance of being autistic.

Oh, I'm sorry, if the great Wombat, recipient of 15 Phd's in everything from medicine to astrophysics, says it's wrong, then certainly it must.

Thimerosal to this day has not been eliminated, as it is still not outlawed. The link I posted for schmosef shows a list of vaccines that do and do not contain the preservative. The link is to a medical distribution company and seems to be up-to-date according to my research.

Anyway, like I've said in all of my posts, I don't know whether my sons vaccines are the cause of his over-hyperactivity or not. It may only be coincidental, but I've seen enough on the anti-thimerosal side to suspect something is not right. Whether you chose to draw a different conclusion that's up to you, but the simple fact that drug companies have drastically reduced or eliminated thimerosal in their products is an indicator that there is a high probability that something wrong may be afoot.

[Wombat]

Oh, I'm sorry, if the great Wombat, recipient of 15 Phd's in everything from medicine to astrophysics, says it's wrong, then certainly it must.

Not me, the CDC.

Thimerosal to this day has not been eliminated, as it is still not outlawed.

So what? Your whole tirade is that children shouldn't get it, and they don't.

The link I posted for schmosef shows a list of vaccines that do and do not contain the preservative. The link is to a medical distribution company and seems to be up-to-date according to my research.

And still, no American child under 7 receives thimerosal today.

Whether you chose to draw a ifferent conclusion that's up to you, but the simple fact that drug companies have drastically reduced or eliminated thimerosal in their products is an indicator that there is a high probability that something wrong may be afoot.

Or just a high probability that they understand there was money to be made by addressing peoples' fears.

[Jammrock]

Not me, the CDC.

So the CDC is always right? They've never made a mistake? They would never publicly say one thing so the problem could be solved in the background to prevent a nation wide, or possibly international, panic?

So what? Your whole tirade is that children shouldn't get it, and they don't.

No, I stated what the arguement against thimerosal was and then said that we are waiting until my daughter is older before we vaccinate her. I never went a tirade, I just presented one side of the arguement and you went on a tirade against me.

And still, no American child under 7 receives thimerosal today.

And your basis for this statement is...

Or just a high probability that they understand there was money to be made by addressing peoples' fears.

That is another option, but not the only one. Since neither of us sit in any pharmacuetical boards or high level meetings either one of the options are pure speculation.

You know what your problem is Wombat? You've become a neo-KvH. Your mind is so steadfast set on your own opinions and views of the world that you can't stand anyone who has different opinions or comes to different conclusions than your own, and anyone who even hints at having a different view than yours you automatically lambaste. The only difference between the two of you is that KvH supports an "old world" view and you support a "neo-contemporary" view. And honestly, you've become just as annoying.

I never claimed at any point to have "proof" that thimerosal was the cause of the increased rate in autism in children, nor did I tirade against it. Nor did I, nor do I, claim to know that it was the cause for my sons over-hyperactivity, yet your comments constantly suppose that I do. The only tirade I've made is against your arrogance.

Jammrock

[Dr Mordrid]

The basis of Wombats statement is that was taken out of all new US vaccines ~1998-1999 ish. The problem is that there are still vaccines in storage with it in them and they are legal to use. Until are used up or go out of date some kids will still be getting thimerosal.

[Wombat]

Which ones, though? The CDC site says that they've all expired by early 2003. Just the flu vaccine, which children may receive around 7 years.

[Wombat]

All that shows is the possibility of a genetic predisposition that the thimerosal may activate.

The fact remains that there is evidence, admittedly anecdotal, that large groups who have not been vaccinated have little or no autisim...the Ahmish for one. Congress has decided to settle it once and for all by doing a comprehensive study of those communities, which I think is a good thing.

I don't understand how testing the Amish would do anything here. We both agree there's a genetic factor, but the Amish are an isolated pool, and already subject to the founder's effect in a few notable ways. We already know they have abnormally high levels of dwarfism, for example. Until we know the genes involved, and can test for them, we can't say if the Amish are autism carriers or not. The only way to know would to be to start vaccinating a statistical sample from their community, and see if it suddenly manifests.

The inverse of this test would be to stop injecting thimerosal into a population that both has autism present and uses such vaccines. And haven't we already turned the entire population into such a test group? A group of that size, the results should be quite measurable.

[Gurm]

I am given to understand that thimerosal is PRIMARILY only used in the flu vaccine now, and even in that case only because there have been shortages, so it's used in order to be able to ship larger quantities at once.

I'm not saying that it never gets into anything else, but for example I'm relatively certain that nothing Jacob has been injected with had thimerosal in it. Logan's flu vaccine last year, however, did - and it freaked me out at the time. I should have just skipped it.

[cjolley]

ChooChoo received her original vaccinations in a Chinese orphanage.
The vaccinations in Chinese orphanages are notoriously ineffective.
Almost no doubt they contained enough thimerosal to fell a horse and yet were also expired.

We just started her over (except for hep b which titered active immunity*), just because it it simpler than having her titered for all of them.
All of her re-vaccinations would have been long after the thimerosal was out of them here.
So far, at age 5y 7m, no sign of anything resembling autism.
In fact us two book worms have ended up with an Asian Shirley Temple for a daughter

* She showed high immunity, so at least one of her original shots was VERY effective.
You just never know...

[ND66]

Just made the news today:

Different genes may cause autism in girls

Different genes may be responsible for causing autism in boys than in girls, researchers said on Wednesday in a study that may help explain why the condition is more common in boys.

And other genes may play a role in the early onset and late onset forms of autism, the researchers at the University of Washington reported in the journal Molecular Genetics.

"What is meaningful is that we have found evidence for two genetic subtypes of autism, male versus female and early versus late onset," said Geraldine Dawson, a professor of psychology.

These findings could help scientists understand autism at a molecular level and seek ways to prevent it, Dawson added.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimated in May that autism was very common among U.S. children -- with up to one in every 175 with the disorder. That would mean at least 300,000 U.S. schoolchildren have autism, a condition that causes trouble with learning, socializing and other behavior.

The researchers examined the DNA of 169 families with at least two siblings who met the strict criteria for autism.

They also scanned the DNA of 54 other families that had members with autism and less-severe forms of the disorder, such as Asperger syndrome.

They came up with "strong support" for an autism gene on chromosome 7 and "less, but still compelling evidence" for genes on chromosomes 3, 4 and 11, said Gerard Schellenberg, a professor of medicine at the University of Washington who led the study.

"It is highly unlikely that there is only one gene responsible for autism," Schellenberg said in a statement.

"There may be four to six major genes and 20 to 30 others that might contribute to autism to a lesser degree," he added.

"And because autism is rarer in females, it may take more risk genes for a female to have autism. There also is the possibility that there might be a biological difference in autism for females versus males."

The researchers said they were looking for genes that might put children at higher risk of autism so they could begin early treatment or perhaps even one day find a way to prevent the condition.

"Once we discover these susceptibility genes, we can immediately screen infants to identify those at risk early in life. Early identification can lead to early intervention, which could have a much more dramatic effect," Dawson said.

"Also, when a gene is discovered, you discover the underlying biology of autism at the molecular level. Once you understand the biology you can develop a prevention strategy including medical approaches," Dawson said.