Medical ethics

[az]

My question: is such treatment cruel?

Absolutely.

Like Gurm, I am pro-euthanasia (though we don't use that word in Germany because it was used by the Nazis as a euphemism for their mass-murdering jews, homosexuals, disabled, etc. We say "Sterbehilfe", which means "dying help".). I still haven't made a living will, but I still plan to. Medicine should do all that's possible to prolong a life that's still worth living, and help people cross the border as quickly or slowly as they want to, painless and in dignity. Article 1 of the german Grundgesetz (our basic, fundamental law) states that "Human dignity is inviolable.". In my opinion this means I have the right to go with dignity. I don't want to be remembered as a drooling half-corpse that soils itself. I don't want to be remembered as a hollow shell, vegetating in coma for months or years. I want to be remembered as a living, intelligent and dignified human being, and I don't want to burden my loved ones with having to care for me if I cannot enjoy life anymore. I also never want to shoulder this burden myself - on neither side.

As much as it burdens her to take care of her husband, I doubt she'd want her husband to be put to death. From Brian's post, she seems to still love her husband very much and I doubt she's ready to just let him go not to mention that it would probably be harder to let him die then to keep on taking care of him.

What does this have to do with his dignity?

Also, have you ever done anything even remotely like what hell she's going through at the moment? I doubt it. Almost nothing on earth would be harder than taking care of somebody like Brian's friend for years and years.

The question is, who gets to decide when someone lives or dies and what right does that person have to make that decision?

Ideally, yourself in a living will. Failing that, your spouse - by living together with them you implied your trust to decide for you should you become unable to do so. When you marry someone, you grant them the right to decide.

alright Kavorkians,
how would you feel if you said "my loved one is beyond hope, let him/her pass" and find out shortly after there was a treatment to adjust the condition?

What's a Kavorkian? I could live with this decision endlessly better than with what Umfriend described. I would know it was in my best faith, and if there is such a thing as an afterlife, my spouse would know as well.


If you are against euthanasia for yourself, that's fine with me - this is a very personal decision, and who am I to criticize yours. But don't criticize mine either. Leave the choice to me. Or my survivors.


Brian, I wish your friend a swift and painless death (and who finds this cynical didn't understand anything), so that his wife can finally mourn before she has forgotten how he once was, and before this situation breaks her.

[ZokesPro]

What does this have to do with his dignity?

If you read that post carefully you will notice that it has nothing to do with his dignity. In fact, I should have paid more attention to Brian's post, my bad.

[RhinoZ]

Either I'll be way off base here, and I just haven't read the posts correctly.

I was with the underdstanding that Brian, was not saying anything about euthanasia, more about ending a useless treatment and let nature take it course.
I've lost a few friends to cancer, as painful it was to see the cancer eating them up inside, it was alot worse watching him go through the treatments. But as bad as those treatments were, I was ever grateful for the extra time I had with him. I said a long goodbye over the last few weeks of his life. We traded old stories, we learned a few secrets, and then, when he could barely have the energy to talk, I would make him smile, and sometimes I would make us cry. But then it got really bad, over one night on a weekend, it was one thing after another after another. He was scheduled for another chemo treatment for the Monday, it could kill him. The doctors insisted to continue with the treatment, but the family cancelled the session, my friend died peacefully Thursday night. Seven months after being diagnosed with cancer.
It was a great 6 months having him around even thou he was taking enough pills that he called it a meal. It was even worth it after his weekly chemo sessions, even thou he suffered for two days after it. It was great that the doctors, the pills, the chemo, helped to prolonged his life, but in the end the science was failing. It can only do so much before it pretends to be something else. Alot of talk was that the family gave up, pulled the plug too soon, took the easy way out. ALot of people can be so cruel. But I didn't think they did a bad thing, he was dying.
Now I know it's not the same thing Brian is saying with his story. His friend is still physically alive, where my friend wasn't. Does it make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. But are you doing something morally wrong if you stop medicating the condtion and allow nature to take it's course. I don't think that's euthanasia. I think you just stopped cheating with nature.

[Sasq]

There are two things in this life that are certain.
Death and Taxes.
While it may be possible to cheat on the latter (and if your lucky not get caught).
The only ultimate way to cheat on the former, is to live on in the minds and genes of friends and children.

I am both my mind and my body. If medical technology can sustain both for me in a time of need, good. But if I loose either required part, I only hope I am able to say goodbye and 'I love you' to those that need to hear it. Then I pray I will be able to depart with dignity.

We will all depart someday, even if we don't wish to admit it. I watched my grandfather die of cancer. at 84 he was told he had six months, he died 4.5 years later, but the last 8 months of his life he was bedridden and not even able to recognize his wife of 60 years.
It prolonged the mourning and healing process for everybody.

My father was given 3 years due to a heart condition. 1.5 years in he took a turn for the worse. I went to the hospital the night before he died, was able to tell him I loved him. He passed the next day. Whole time frame about 4 days. It was a harder shock yes, but, we were able to deal with it quicker (we were fortunate in knowing he had a heart condition).

After watching both, and its effects on friends and family, I can clearly state when it is my time, I wish to go quickly, peacefully and with dignity. I do not want an empty shell prolonged to the extra pain of my loved ones.

To answer Brians question directly, if your friend is that far gone - and from what I understand from the writing, he really isn't in there any more- I agree it would be better to stop the medication and let nature take its course. Life is more then a heartbeat, sadly doctors some times tend to forget that.

[Dilitante1]

Re: AZ
read here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Kevorkian