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  • At last!

    Two weeks ago, hybrid cars started to be imported here at a more or less acceptable price. The two contenders are the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic IMA.

    The Prius was the first to be tested:
    On a typical 50 km test run, deliberately tough on fuel consumption (uphill short slip roads onto the highway, taking roundabouts fast, mixed traffic from dense stop-start congested city to ordinary highway, to open winding country roads), I averaged 5.8 l/100 km, with the radio, aircon and running headlights on.

    The Civic, same road and conditions, I averaged 6.2 l/100 km, but it went down to 5.3 while I reached the end of the highway stretch, while the Prius rose from 5.2 to 5.4 on the highway.

    I found the Civic did not accelerate as well on the uphill slip road, but I just got to the speed limit (100 km/h) at the point of merging. The Prius actually reached about 115 km/h on the length of the slip road.

    For handling and comfort, the Civic won hands down. On a specific roundabout, I accelerated hard to a speed where I felt the car starting to become unstable (much to the consternation of the salesmen!). The Prius was about 6 km/h slower and the tyres started even to slip with more understeer. For equipment, the Civic had everything as standard, the Prius had many things as options.

    Price: the basic price of the Civic is £12,900, on the road, incl. tax, VAT, licensing, the Prius £15,600 + another £450 for options. I was offered £4,900 for my 8 year-old Honda CR-V by Honda and £4,500 by Toyota. (£1 = ~$2.1). I also get a £700 payback as a government subsidy, for either model.

    I decided on the Civic and have ordered one, despite the slightly higher petrol consumption. The main reasons were the price, quieter ride, better handling and it doesn't look like I'm trying to make a statement. The downside is a 6 month delivery lead time (Prius was 4 months).

    Out of curiosity, I asked the Honda sales guy how their sales were going. He said that he had 6 in bond when the new tax laws were introduced 2 weeks ago. 5 have since been delivered and the 6th is their demo model. They have signed 67 contracts for them (mine is the 67th!) with a delivery quota of 10-12/month. I didn't think of asking the Toyota guy the same question.

    Just to situate my level of prejudice. I ran Toyota cars in Switzerland for ~27 years and was never disappointed in quality, reliability or service. When I came out here, many minor roads were still dirt roads (now 95% tarmac) and I felt a 4-wheel drive was desirable. Not wanting a big, gas-guzzling, SUV, I looked initially at a Toyota RAV-4 and a Honda CR-V, my first contacts with 4-WD cars. After a road test, I broke with my pro-Toyota bias on the grounds of the suspension, handling and ride, and chose the Honda. In 8 years, I've never had any cause for complaint with it or the service. The only part that had to be replaced (other than tyres and a battery) was the lambda, in 8 years. I think I can fairly say that I approached the Toyota v. Honda view as equal in my mind.
    Brian (the devil incarnate)

  • #2
    Wouldn't VW Lupo turn out more fuel efficient?

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    • #3
      GM announced today that they're going to produce plug-in hybrids, meaning you can plug it in and go full electric or use it as a hybrid.
      Dr. Mordrid
      ----------------------------
      An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

      I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Nowhere
        Wouldn't VW Lupo turn out more fuel efficient?
        a) the Lupo is no longer made

        b) the Fox, that replaces it, is tiny

        c) have you ever been in one?

        d) only the TDi is economical if you have 2 persons on board and I'm prejudiced against diesels

        e) they may be OK for town vehicles but we have 30 km of highway to the nearest town.

        f) I don't think they are imported here
        Brian (the devil incarnate)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dr Mordrid
          GM announced today that they're going to produce plug-in hybrids, meaning you can plug it in and go full electric or use it as a hybrid.
          Plug-in wouldn't work here. All our electricity is generated from oil and the CO2/km would go up from ~120 g to ~200 g if we ran cars from the power supply. This is a very inefficient way of running a car if looked at holistically. In any case, to get any real benefit, you would need larger NiMH batteries which would increase cost and weight. I think the petrol/hybrid as per Prius/Civic with a fairly small battery only good for a few km on electric power is the best bet with today's technology.

          Furthermore, if the plug-ins became mainstream, the current (pun intended) generating and grid capacity would be insufficient to handle the extra load as everyone plugged in at the same time, when they got in from work, while wifey has the oven on for dinner and each kid has his TV on with the aircons going full blast.
          Brian (the devil incarnate)

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          • #6
            The IEA World Energy Outlook 2006 (it was published on Tuesday) would agree with Brian's comments re. (mild) hybrids being the most probable and logical tech out to 2030 or so, especially from a holistic point of view, and also when combined with 2nd generation biofuels (1st gen is a bit meh on the total-lifecycle GHG front when NOx is taken into account, unless you're in Brazil and doing it with cane and using all of it including the cellulose). Various industry sources I've talked to are in broad agreement as well.
            DM says: Crunch with Matrox Users@ClimatePrediction.net

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Brian Ellis
              I'm prejudiced against diesels
              Why?

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              • #8
                I imagine because they can't use catalysers (or...something, not sure the EN term)

                And Brian, I've been frequently in smaller/more cramped cars (do google image search or something on "polski fiat 126p". Too bad the Lupo is out...I loved it's commercial (the one with Passat at a gas station)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by jms
                  Why?
                  a) the more persistent smell of the less volatile fuel
                  b) the higher level of gaseous pollutants (esp NOx) compared with catalysed petrol cars
                  c) the higher level of particular pollutants, even when fitted with a particle filter (which reduce only the larger particles (>0.5 µm) and let the more dangerous microparticles pass uninhibited
                  d) the higher CO2 yield per kg of fuel
                  Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Brian Ellis
                    a) the more persistent smell of the less volatile fuel
                    b) the higher level of gaseous pollutants (esp NOx) compared with catalysed petrol cars
                    c) the higher level of particular pollutants, even when fitted with a particle filter (which reduce only the larger particles (>0.5 µm) and let the more dangerous microparticles pass uninhibited
                    d) the higher CO2 yield per kg of fuel
                    The general view here is that _overall_ the modern diesel engine pollutes less than petrol engines. From a drivers perspective the diesels are wonderful. Feels very powerful compared to equally sized petrol engines, and use less fuel. I used to drive a Nissan Primera 2.0 petrol using almost 1 litre/10 km. Just bought a VW Passat 1.9 TDi which uses approx 0.6 litre/10km. Very pleased with it.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jms
                      The general view here is that _overall_ the modern diesel engine pollutes less than petrol engines. From a drivers perspective the diesels are wonderful. Feels very powerful compared to equally sized petrol engines, and use less fuel. I used to drive a Nissan Primera 2.0 petrol using almost 1 litre/10 km. Just bought a VW Passat 1.9 TDi which uses approx 0.6 litre/10km. Very pleased with it.
                      It's true that a diesel engined car of a given swept capacity will produce slightly less CO2 per km than with a petrol engine of equal capacity. It is definitely not true that it is less polluting, even with a particle filter. However, as a general rule, the kW/l of a diesel engine is less than that of petrol engine (assuming similar configurations). This is why, if you have a choice of engines for a given car model, the smallest ones are nearly always petrol or, if they are diesel, they are turbocharged to up the HP. However, I concede that the diesel is better for torque than a petrol engine, as is the electric part of the hybrid.
                      Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                      • #12
                        Hey Brian, welcome to the club!
                        Your reasons were pretty much the same as our reasons.
                        Though we were willing to get the Prius until the Toyota dealer made the deal too unpleasant.

                        What colour are you getting?
                        The only available options here are color (no charge) and a GPS/Sound system that we did not want.
                        We are currently getting 38mpg (~6.2 l/100km) all city driving.
                        We only have 250 miles on it, of which 2 are highway, so can't say about highway millage yet.

                        PS It didn't hurt that the Hybrid Civic was judged one of the 10 most reliable cars sold in the US.


                        [edit]normalized units to l/100km[/edit]
                        Chuck
                        秋音的爸爸

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                        • #13
                          Yes, the Prius was definitely better in congested city traffic, but the Civic won handsomely on the highway, there is little doubt. As I said, on the highway stretch, the overall average consumption on my test rose with the Prius and dropped with the Civic on the highway and I saw the opposite effect in the city. I was surprised a little with the Civic by the engine starting as soon as you lifted your foot off the brake pedal and not when the power was actually needed. However, ~50 km is not enough to learn the quirks of either car to get best consumption. What I did see with both cars was that the first few km after starting the engine from cold was that the consumption was higher in city driving than when the engine was hot and I suggest that short trips to the local mall or dropping off the kids to school may be less economical (even if it is mostly on electric only with the Prius, as the battery has to recharge sooner or later).

                          My usual driving pattern is about 50:30:20 in kilometres highway:country:urban or ~33:33:33 in time. Difficult to be categorical from my limited experience, but I think this pattern would favour the Civic over the Prius. I would guess that anyone doing essentially city driving would be better with the Prius.

                          When I get it, I'll be curious to see how the cruise control works with the economy. The salesman said he obtained the rated (similar to EPA) figures with it, but who believes car salesmen?

                          Wifey chose silver as first colour choice - wanted a light colour to economise on aircon use but the white was too stark. The only option available here was leather seats, which we did not take. However, if a different colour comes up earlier, I might be tempted.
                          Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Brian Ellis
                            Wifey chose silver as first colour choice - wanted a light colour to economise on aircon use
                            I'll never understand people in Israel who buy black cars, unless the cars are always stationed away from direct sun light, or the buyers are simply pimps.
                            "For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism."

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TransformX
                              I'll never understand people in Israel who buy black cars, unless the cars are always stationed away from direct sun light, or the buyers are simply pimps.
                              Or politicians? Or is that the same thing?

                              Actually, a highly polished black car is no worse than a white car with enough dust on it to just make the surface matt without being too visible. It's the windows that are the real devil. They should make cars with no glass, just highly polished stainless steel over the whole bodywork!
                              Last edited by Brian Ellis; 12 November 2006, 02:02.
                              Brian (the devil incarnate)

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