Sasq isn't gonna let this one slide...

[schmosef]

How and Why AJAX, Not Java, Became the Favored Technology for RIAs

Several of Bruce Tate’s books focused on the flaws in Java and the need to let go of some of the ideas that haven’t worked out. And blogs like this and this have been appearing more frequently. And of course there’s Steve Jobs now-famous quote (referring to the iPhone): “Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain.”

ouch!

[TnT]

Java isn't seen as much on desktop user end much, but in the enteprise world it still seems to be going strong. There are people using JSF, portlets and stuff like that to power their webpages, but a lot of that is never used by Joe Smith at home.

He's definitely right that Java did miss the boat. I don't know why they chose to use AJAX in the title because his points about Flash are better. Java could've been where Flash is now except way more powerful. The AJAX comparison is iffy though because AJAX still relies on some server side language to do actual work (ie we have AJAX pages that call on Java servlets).

GUI side and server side are two different fronts. Java obviously developed to tackle the processing side and then the GUI side was tacked on (apparently quickly too -- explains why AWT sucks). Flash tackled the GUI side first and if you try to mangle it into a more powerful language, it'll probaby end up just as difficult to develop strong Flash applications.

His points on Flex are good as that a hybrid approach is the best way to go, but he didn't include the points of why JavaScript and CSS support is crappy. MS benefits from messing up standards -- because they control so much market share they can implement minor changes to the standard claiming it is better. Developers then use the MS standard because so many people use IE... which leads to cross browser incompatibilities and people sticking with the "industry leader".

Why this relates to Flex is that we again are now dependent on a single company that can dictate how things change. He mentions that Flex works is pretty well done across platforms, but what if another device comes along that Macromedia decides not to support? If Flex is allowed to be an open standard that others can make their own servers and clients, then the same JavaScript/CSS problems occur all over again.

All-in-all I think we really do need two separate languages for programming GUIs and for programming the processing side of the application. One designed to make good GUI development easier and one that's powerful for server side.

Full disclosure: I'm a Java developer. I also like Bruce Eckel a lot, smart, thoughtful coder/writer.

[agallag]

Java was a great idea with very flawed execution. It was supposed to be cross platform nirvana, but instead we've got more incompatible versions of Java than there ever were different platforms to code for. What's the frickin' point in that?

Sorry, I guess I'm still a little peeved that we have to jump through so many hoops to get Java updated for the 2007 DST changes in NA. Grrrr. Why does Java need to keep it's own time zone tables? WHY!!!!!111

[Gurm]

Java was the next great thing. I had high hopes for Java. It was like C++ on the outside, but like SCHEME/LISP on the inside. I was so excited!

...

...

And then nobody made a fast interpreter. And nobody made cross-platform compatible versions. And nobody did anything with it other than code server pages and crapplets.

...

...

And it never fulfilled its promise. No dynamic recompilation. None of the stuff that makes LISP great (and still used today in acadaemia and cutting-edge computing). Just... crapplets and server pages.

Oh well. Bye-bye, Java!

OH WAIT! It's in my phone. Really REALLY R E A L L Y slow, but it's there. But it's too slow to be useful. Oh, well!

[Jessterw]

I wouldn't be so fast to write Java off. There's been a whole flurry of developer activity, both within and outside of Sun, refining the good parts and rethinking the bad ones. Most of the work being done is JSP-related, but rich client application development is receiving a good deal of attention as well.

Swing is still horribly inept out-of-the-box at creating a modern GUI, but it's starting to be shaped into what it was supposed to be all along.


Java definitely missed the boat the first go-round. Sun's inability to the target it effectively and some really bad decisions on the development side (like why Swing sucks) crippled it before it had much of a chance to go anywhere. Hopefully Sun and the rest can pull it off properly this time, because what Java promised to be is still needed (write one, run almost anywhere) and DHTML... *ahem* AJAX-based web services aren't always going to be the best way to go.

[Dr Mordrid]

Let's also not forget that both BluRay and HD DVD use JAVA in their interactive menu standards; BR-J and HDi, along with XML.

Bottom line: JAVA will be around for a long time, especially as things move to online interactivity of content.

[Gurm]

Let's also not forget that both BluRay and HD DVD use JAVA in their interactive menu standards; BR-J and HDi, along with XML.

Let's not forget that nobody will invest in either format for a long time, not while we have 200+ Disc DVD collections to hoard.

Bottom line: JAVA will be around for a long time, especially as things move to online interactivity of content.

BASIC was around for a long time too. So was COBOL. Ick.