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  • Treating death

    Talk about a general interest topic

    A heads up on the changing world of resuscitation and a new definition of death; the person who drops from a heart attack may be clinically dead, but their cells are alive well past the traditional 4-5 minute "barrier". Indeed, they may survive for hours.

    A revolution in emergency care has started.

    Newsweek article....

    >
    If the patient doesn't receive cardiopulmonary resuscitation within that time, and if his heart can't be restarted soon thereafter, he is unlikely to recover. That dogma went unquestioned until researchers actually looked at oxygen-starved heart cells under a microscope. What they saw amazed them, according to Dr. Lance Becker, an authority on emergency medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. "After one hour," he says, "we couldn't see evidence the cells had died. We thought we'd done something wrong." In fact, cells cut off from their blood supply died only hours later.

    But if the cells are still alive, why can't doctors revive someone who has been dead for an hour? Because once the cells have been without oxygen for more than five minutes, they die when their oxygen supply is resumed. It was that "astounding" discovery, Becker says, that led him to his post as the director of Penn's Center for Resuscitation Science, a newly created research institute operating on one of medicine's newest frontiers: treating the dead.
    >
    With this realization came another: that standard emergency-room procedure has it exactly backward. When someone collapses on the street of cardiac arrest, if he's lucky he will receive immediate CPR, maintaining circulation until he can be revived in the hospital. But the rest will have gone 10 or 15 minutes or more without a heartbeat by the time they reach the emergency department. And then what happens? "We give them oxygen," Becker says. "We jolt the heart with the paddles, we pump in epinephrine to force it to beat, so it's taking up more oxygen." Blood-starved heart muscle is suddenly flooded with oxygen, precisely the situation that leads to cell death. Instead, Becker says, we should aim to reduce oxygen uptake, slow metabolism and adjust the blood chemistry for gradual and safe reperfusion.
    >
    A study at four hospitals, published last year by the University of California, showed a remarkable rate of success in treating sudden cardiac arrest with an approach that involved, among other things, a "cardioplegic" blood infusion to keep the heart in a state of suspended animation. Patients were put on a heart-lung bypass machine to maintain circulation to the brain until the heart could be safely restarted. The study involved just 34 patients, but 80 percent of them were discharged from the hospital alive. In one study of traditional methods, the figure was about 15 percent.

    Becker also endorses hypothermia—lowering body temperature from 37 to 33 degrees Celsius—which appears to slow the chemical reactions touched off by reperfusion. He has developed an injectable slurry of salt and ice to cool the blood quickly that he hopes to make part of the standard emergency-response kit. "In an emergency department, you work like mad for half an hour on someone whose heart stopped, and finally someone says, 'I don't think we're going to get this guy back,' and then you just stop," Becker says. The body on the cart is dead, but its trillions of cells are all still alive. Becker wants to resolve that paradox in favor of life.
    Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 1 May 2007, 20:49.
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    Very Cool
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    • #3
      Notwithstanding, I always carry DNR instructions with me. There is no way I want to wake up either a mental or a physical vegetable. My wife ditto. If I don't respond to first aid, that's it, goodbye, world!
      Brian (the devil incarnate)

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      • #4
        More from U Penn's site....

        “We have developed a whole program on why cooling saves cells,” said Becker. “Immediate cooling cardiac arrest victims increased their survival by 16%. That’s a very significant improvement which could mean thousands of lives saved each year as we get faster and better at cooling patients. Unfortunately, we don’t know exactly how cooling saves cells, so we will definitely be doing cellular experiments on the mechanisms of how cooling works. The one thing we do know from our lab, the best results require rapid cooling, yet we don’t have a good way to rapidly cool patients.”

        To develop more rapid cooling methods the Center for Resuscitation Science will continue to develop a novel cold slurry - a slushy mixture of salt and ice crystals - that can be injected intravenously for rapid internal cooling.

        “Our current methods of cooling are far too slow,” said Becker. “Injecting bio-compatible cold slurry is the best way to rapidly drop internal temperature.”

        Eventually, the goal is to create a slurry-delivery device that both medically and non-medically trained people could use on cardiac arrest patients to keep them cool during transport to a hospital.


        “I don’t think the full benefits of cooling on humans have been discovered yet,” continued Becker. “I’m looking forward to working with the team to find the best ways to rapidly cool patients.”

        While Dr. Becker may be an expert in finding cardiac care solutions, he will also be working on ways to extend brain function during periods of resuscitation.


        “Many of the things we see in the heart, are also true in the brain and the focus of our new Center is to save both the heart and the brain. Therapies for the heart may be adapted to work on the brain. I am excited because Penn offers the ability for me to work side-by-side with Penn neuroscientists to develop advanced therapies to work for both organs.”

        In recognition of his many scientific contributions and international leadership, Dr. Becker was also recently elected as a member of the Institute of Medicine (IOM), one of the nations’ highest honors in biomedicine.
        Dr. Mordrid
        ----------------------------
        An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

        I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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        • #5
          Aren't there lots of cases where people has drowned in ice cold water and been revived more than 30 minutes later (they been clinically dead) without brain damage etc ?
          If there's artificial intelligence, there's bound to be some artificial stupidity.

          Jeremy Clarkson "806 brake horsepower..and that on that limp wrist faerie liquid the Americans call petrol, if you run it on the more explosive jungle juice we have in Europe you'd be getting 850 brake horsepower..."

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          • #6
            Many, usually laid to the mammalian dive reflex, but this is something else more fundamental to cellular chemistry.
            Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 2 May 2007, 01:32.
            Dr. Mordrid
            ----------------------------
            An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

            I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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            • #7
              I'm with Brian in spirit here. I'd only want the advanced resuscitation if my brain were no more useless afterwards than it is now.

              I don't carry dnr instructions because making my family care for my every need for 20 years would be sweet revenge. MWAHAHAHA! (j/k).
              FT.

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              • #8
                DNR notes might need revision in the not too far future, especially in light of the new findings.

                Basic hypothermia kits are already finding their way into rescue squads, which could well turn people who would otherwise "go veg" into full survivors. Slurry kits could save tens of thousands more.

                It's also been found that hydrogen sulfide plus oxygen restriction contribute to lowering metabolism enough to aid the process. Add it all up and on-scene suspended animation doesn't look to far off.

                Another interesting factoid is that in most cerebral hemorrhages much of the damage isn't immediate; it occurs over time. The main causes are neurons being directly exposed to blood and the increase in cerebral pressure caused by continued bleeding.

                Put the person into hypothermic suspended animation at the scene and you stop the latter and drastically slow the former.
                Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 2 May 2007, 06:59.
                Dr. Mordrid
                ----------------------------
                An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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                • #9
                  Amongst the elderly, most strokes are caused by infarctions rather than by haemmorhages. The damage is therefore quasi-instantaneous and largely non-reversible (not counting alternate neuron paths that sometimes develop). I've had two such small ones which left my right arm and hand weak. I don't want a big one and know about it and I've no intention of rescinding my DNR, even for immortality. I would rather my family remember me for what I am and not for 10 years of care with no control over any orifice and no mind. DNR for ever! In fact, I consider that therapeutic determination to keep patients alive at all costs is as immoral as euthanasia. Nature has the answer: a dignified death.
                  Brian (the devil incarnate)

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                  • #10
                    I wish my wife would carry a DNR card...
                    The Welsh support two teams when it comes to rugby. Wales of course, and anyone else playing England

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paddy View Post
                      I wish my wife would carry a DNR card...
                      We have enough youth - What we need is a fountain of smart!


                      i7-920, 6GB DDR3-1600, HD4870X2, Dell 27" LCD

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Brian Ellis View Post
                        In fact, I consider that therapeutic determination to keep patients alive at all costs is as immoral as euthanasia. Nature has the answer: a dignified death.
                        Exactly!
                        There's an Opera in my macbook.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tjalfe View Post

                          I'm only joking

                          In all seriousness, I keep meaning to get a DNR card. Well unless I arrest on a cardiology ward...
                          The Welsh support two teams when it comes to rugby. Wales of course, and anyone else playing England

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                          • #14
                            If they can resuscitate without brain damage then I see no real downside. Other than eliminating the darwin factor (which is that maybe some of these dying people SHOULD die).
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