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  • "Inorganic" dust in plasma alive?

    Could "inorganic" dust in plasma clouds be 'alive' using a different paradigm than we currently understand? If so then the old sci-fi staple of 'plasmoid' lifeforms might just be possible. It'll be interesting to see how this works out in the lab.

    PhysOrg link....

    'It might be life Jim...', physicists discover inorganic dust with life-like qualities

    Could extraterrestrial life be made of corkscrew-shaped particles of interstellar dust? Intriguing new evidence of life-like structures that form from inorganic substances in space are revealed today in the New Journal of Physics.


    The findings hint at the possibility that life beyond earth may not necessarily use carbon-based molecules as its building blocks. They also point to a possible new explanation for the origin of life on earth.

    Life on earth is organic. It is composed of organic molecules, which are simply the compounds of carbon, excluding carbonates and carbon dioxide. The idea that particles of inorganic dust may take on a life of their own is nothing short of alien, going beyond the silicon-based life forms favoured by some science fiction stories.

    Now, an international team has discovered that under the right conditions, particles of inorganic dust can become organised into helical structures. These structures can then interact with each other in ways that are usually associated with organic compounds and life itself.

    V.N. Tsytovich of the General Physics Institute, Russian Academy of Science, in Moscow, working with colleagues there and at the Max-Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Garching, Germany and the University of Sydney, Australia, has studied the behaviour of complex mixtures of inorganic materials in a plasma. Plasma is essentially the fourth state of matter beyond solid, liquid and gas, in which electrons are torn from atoms leaving behind a miasma of charged particles.

    Until now, physicists assumed that there could be little organisation in such a cloud of particles. However, Tsytovich and his colleagues demonstrated, using a computer model of molecular dynamics, that particles in a plasma can undergo self-organization as electronic charges become separated and the plasma becomes polarized. This effect results in microscopic strands of solid particles that twist into corkscrew shapes, or helical structures. These helical strands are themselves electronically charged and are attracted to each other.

    Quite bizarrely, not only do these helical strands interact in a counterintuitive way in which like can attract like, but they also undergo changes that are normally associated with biological molecules, such as DNA and proteins, say the researchers. They can, for instance, divide, or bifurcate, to form two copies of the original structure. These new structures can also interact to induce changes in their neighbours and they can even evolve into yet more structures as less stable ones break down, leaving behind only the fittest structures in the plasma.

    So, could helical clusters formed from interstellar dust be somehow alive? "These complex, self-organized plasma structures exhibit all the necessary properties to qualify them as candidates for inorganic living matter," says Tsytovich, "they are autonomous, they reproduce and they evolve".


    He adds that the plasma conditions needed to form these helical structures are common in outer space. However, plasmas can also form under more down to earth conditions such as the point of a lightning strike. The researchers hint that perhaps an inorganic form of life emerged on the primordial earth, which then acted as the template for the more familiar organic molecules we know today.

    Source: IoP
    Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 11 August 2007, 03:30.
    Dr. Mordrid
    ----------------------------
    An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

    I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

  • #2
    I've got 2 points on this:

    It's always good to see scientists that are able to "think outside the box"

    The division of "organic" and "inorganic" seems to hang only on that we are Carbon based
    If there's artificial intelligence, there's bound to be some artificial stupidity.

    Jeremy Clarkson "806 brake horsepower..and that on that limp wrist faerie liquid the Americans call petrol, if you run it on the more explosive jungle juice we have in Europe you'd be getting 850 brake horsepower..."

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    • #3
      Agreed, but it also seems that these things could be 'metabolizing' the energy in the plasma to do these things. One more 'life' function.

      I guess the proof would be a cloud of them surrounding Zephram Cochrane

      Dr. Mordrid
      ----------------------------
      An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

      I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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      • #4
        Hmmm...on one hand all this sounds really exciting to me. One the other...if such organisms were abundant in the Galaxy, we should see "weird" things in emissions from dust clouds, which current theories can't explain, right?...

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        • #5
          Reminds me of a story... by... was it Dick? Maybe? Or Kuttner?

          Where these aliens are doing a survey of our quadrant and they get some radio transmissions, and they're shocked because we're made of "meat".

          "Well how does the meat TALK?"

          "Well, it slaps its meat together to make noises, and passes air over another part of the meat."

          "DISGUSTING! TALKING MEAT!?!?"

          ROFLMAO.
          The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

          I'm the least you could do
          If only life were as easy as you
          I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
          If only life were as easy as you
          I would still get screwed

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Nowhere View Post
            Hmmm...on one hand all this sounds really exciting to me. One the other...if such organisms were abundant in the Galaxy, we should see "weird" things in emissions from dust clouds, which current theories can't explain, right?...
            Not necessarily. They may act as unicellular organisms, or if more complex communications could be non or minimally emissive; magnetic or other fields or through some other means we can't measure at a distance.

            Example: could we measure the rapid chromatophore variations cuttlefish use for communications, obvious as it is, at 1,000 light years with them in the midst of a black or glowing cloud? I don't think so.
            Dr. Mordrid
            ----------------------------
            An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

            I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Dr Mordrid View Post
              Not necessarily. They may act as unicellular organisms, or if more complex communications could be non or minimally emissive; magnetic or other fields or through some other means we can't measure at a distance.

              Example: could we measure the rapid chromatophore variations cuttlefish use for communications, obvious as it is, at 1,000 light years with them in the midst of a black or glowing cloud? I don't think so.

              Well for that matter, could someone measure us talking to each other and drawing pictures on cave walls, or in books, from 1000 light years? No.
              The Internet - where men are men, women are men, and teenage girls are FBI agents!

              I'm the least you could do
              If only life were as easy as you
              I'm the least you could do, oh yeah
              If only life were as easy as you
              I would still get screwed

              Comment


              • #8
                And therein lays the fundamental weakness in SETI; they look for HF radio emissions over a limited bandwidth. I say that an advanced civilization may have moved beyond 'radio' as we know it.

                If this is the case for most civilizations then there may be only a 50-150 light/year thick RF 'bubble' surrounding each civilization, much like an onion skin. Outside of it is their pre-radio period; no emissions. Inside of it is their post-radio 'emissions'; call it subspace or some quantum effect perhaps based on a form of entanglement, but not RF.

                The only RF could be that emitted during that 50-150 year period where unconstrained RF was used; the 'bubble'.

                We ourselves are in the midst of such a transition with fiberoptics and focussed satellite signals beamed to the ground taking the place of 'shotgun' emissions. There is even a project in the works right now that uses quantum entanglement in optical comms as a form of encryption. It's been demo'ed and it works.
                Last edited by Dr Mordrid; 13 August 2007, 11:48.
                Dr. Mordrid
                ----------------------------
                An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.

                I carry a gun because I can't throw a rock 1,250 fps

                Comment


                • #9
                  For all we know, the universe might be brimming with life.

                  Just that few of them develops into society's with FTL travel and communication

                  Yes I do think that FTL is possible, the way it is pounded in that it's impossible sounds to much like any other mental block plaguing us from time to time
                  If there's artificial intelligence, there's bound to be some artificial stupidity.

                  Jeremy Clarkson "806 brake horsepower..and that on that limp wrist faerie liquid the Americans call petrol, if you run it on the more explosive jungle juice we have in Europe you'd be getting 850 brake horsepower..."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gurm View Post
                    Reminds me of a story... by... was it Dick? Maybe? Or Kuttner?

                    Where these aliens are doing a survey of our quadrant and they get some radio transmissions, and they're shocked because we're made of "meat".

                    "Well how does the meat TALK?"

                    "Well, it slaps its meat together to make noises, and passes air over another part of the meat."

                    "DISGUSTING! TALKING MEAT!?!?"

                    ROFLMAO.
                    Terry Bisson (I guess he'd be even more flattered after reading your post )



                    Originally posted by Dr Mordrid View Post
                    Not necessarily. They may act as unicellular organisms, or if more complex communications could be non or minimally emissive; magnetic or other fields or through some other means we can't measure at a distance.

                    Example: could we measure the rapid chromatophore variations cuttlefish use for communications, obvious as it is, at 1,000 light years with them in the midst of a black or glowing cloud? I don't think so.
                    I agree that they may employ methods of communication which don't fall into observable electromagnetic spectrum, but I don't necesserilly agree with the argument with example.
                    Counterexample: our probes which are several AUs from the Sun can easily "check" that there's something suspicious on the third planet of solar system by confirming presence of water, large quantities of oxygen, etc. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about - not communication from "individuals", but seeing how they, possibly, reshape their surroundings. And those dust clouds are much bigger than Earth... (I don't see why such lifeforms, if they exist, should be confined to very small volumes of space...)

                    Originally posted by Dr Mordrid View Post
                    And therein lays the fundamental weakness in SETI; they look for HF radio emissions over a limited bandwidth. I say that an advanced civilization may have moved beyond 'radio' as we know it.

                    If this is the case for most civilizations then there may be only a 50-150 light/year thick RF 'bubble' surrounding each civilization, much like an onion skin. Outside of it is their pre-radio period; no emissions. Inside of it is their post-radio 'emissions'; call it subspace or some quantum effect perhaps based on a form of entanglement, but not RF.

                    The only RF could be that emitted during that 50-150 year period where unconstrained RF was used; the 'bubble'.

                    We ourselves are in the midst of such a transition with fiberoptics and focussed satellite signals beamed to the ground taking the place of 'shotgun' emissions. There is even a project in the works right now that uses quantum entanglement in optical comms as a form of encryption. It's been demo'ed and it works.

                    Agreed.
                    However...there seems to be one source of radio transmissions which doesn't seem to go away anytime soon - radars. Perhaps we should search for transmissions like this... (not sure how applicable that would be - apart from the fact that many radar transmissions from our planet are only short "flashes"...are they somehow modulated/can they be easily recognised as of non-natural origin?)
                    And there seems to be some push towards optical SETI...

                    Originally posted by Technoid View Post
                    For all we know, the universe might be brimming with life.

                    Just that few of them develops into society's with FTL travel and communication

                    Yes I do think that FTL is possible, the way it is pounded in that it's impossible sounds to much like any other mental block plaguing us from time to time

                    Yep, we even have few candidates in our system.

                    And FTL...I don't say no, though it must be pretty rare thing in our Universe/requring very special and inprobable conditions (if FTL communication was easily achievable, it would be also common natural phenomena...and supposedly evolution/life/intelligence would have problems emerging in such universe)

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