Plug-in hybrid credit?

[Dr Mordrid]

Congressman Jay Inslee of the Seattle, WA area has proposed a $4000 tax credit (you get it even if you get an income tax refund) for those purchasing plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEV's). It passed the House but fell 1 vote short of surviving a filibuster in the Senate (it had 59 votes and needed 60).

On reviewing this proposal it became clear that this would only help people with the additional funds and/or credit to complete the purchase. This leaves out the poor who by and large own old and generally out of repair vehicles that get poor mileage, often present safety issues and pollute a lot.

Anyone who drives has seen them; grinding brakes, often blue and/or black smoke coming from the tailpipe....hydrocarbons galore and they can't stop for sh*t. They also often have worn steering gear. Accidents looking for a place to happen. Even if they don't spew smoke their catalytic converters have often long been clogged and been replaced with straight pipes (buy at any auto parts store for <$25) .

Also note that in most states, Michigan included, vehicles over 10 years old do not have to pass an emissions test to be licensed. Nor do they have to pass a basic safety test of the brakes, lights etc.

IMO getting these old vehicles off the road is as much a priority as improving mileage in new vehicles. The high emissions alone would justify the expense.

My proposal; a PHEV voucher for poor/very low income families.

The math:

Cost of a PHEV: $35,000 (latest estimate in the media)
Budgeted funding: $50 billion/year (0.017 of the $3 trillion US budget)
Vehicles replaced: ~1.4 million/year

Cheap IMO, especially if you consider the much higher cost/low efficiency and spotty application of bureaucratic and "enforcement" based solutions.

A plus to the US economy & job situation would be if preference were given to domestically produced PHEV's and parts, regardless of the nationality of the company selling them.

[Brian Ellis]

I see where you're coming from, Doc, but PHEVs are not really suitable for the poor/low income families. If you extended it to ordinary HEVs, I would agree with you. Why? Well to charge a plug-in, you need a metered outlet and that's not easy to find in the street in poor quarters, is it? In any case, I'm agin plug-in vehicles unless the power source is a) renewable or b) nuclear. If it's coal, gas or oil, then the emissions would be higher than a straight HEV.

I'm shocked what you say about emissions and roadworthiness tests: I thought these were mandatory in all the developed nations.

We have a similar problem on this island with old cars (that have passed the tests but which are still a potential danger). The government are now effectively offering to buy them off the owners, on condition that they buy a cleaner vehicle - by means of grants. There are also subsidies for large families to buy larger vehicles.

[cjolley]

LOL.
Good ol' conservative Oklahoma.
"We" voted out all forms of vehicle testing long ago.
Too much government interference in personal market decisions you know.

Of course, you did say the developed world.

[Dr Mordrid]

I'm agin plug-in vehicles unless the power source is a) renewable or b) nuclear. If it's coal, gas or oil, then the emissions would be higher than a straight HEV.

I'm shocked what you say about emissions and roadworthiness tests: I thought these were mandatory in all the developed nations.

We have a similar problem on this island with old cars (that have passed the tests but which are still a potential danger). The government are now effectively offering to buy them off the owners, on condition that they buy a cleaner vehicle - by means of grants. There are also subsidies for large families to buy larger vehicles.

Our local power is nuclear; Fermi 2 @ 1098 MWe.

Road-worthiness tests used to be in the form of random roadblocks, but that was deemed unreasonable search and seizure (unconstitutional vs. the Michigan constitution) in that people were being stopped with no "reasonable/probative cause".

I take a different view of the power source used to charge PHEV's. Fact is that many non-nuclear power plants are more thermally efficient than the ICE in any hybrid, PHEV or regular vehicle; gas/oil fired generating stations being ~60% and ICE's being no more than 34%, and that's for a maxed out racing engine. Street engines are typically 20%-24% efficient.

As for the battery charging ICE's in extended range PHEV's like the Volt they are very likely to be better than those in (P)HEV's and "normal" cars because of their small size (1 liter/3 cyl turbocharged for GM's E-Flex) and narrow operational RPM range.

That being the case generating the power to charge a PHEV vehicle combined with the fact that the average US drivers daily travels are less than the charged range of 1st gen PHEV's like the Volt makes them a very attractive option.

As far as having the electrical capacity for charging them; the DOE and some environmental groups have already co-studied that and found that the US off-peak generating capacity is more than up to the task.

[Marshmallowman]

Kind of sounds like a good idea, except the first thing really poor people will do is sell the car.

[Dr Mordrid]

Not necessarily. The overseeing agency could maintain a lien for x-months/years so as to prevent that.

[Brian Ellis]

Our local power is nuclear; Fermi 2 @ 1098 MWe.

How can you be sure that the juice you charge with is from there? It could just as easily be from an inefficient coal-burning power station, especially when the nuke reactor is shut down for maintenance (several days/year).

Road-worthiness tests used to be in the form of random roadblocks, but that was deemed unreasonable search and seizure (unconstitutional vs. the Michigan constitution) in that people were being stopped with no "reasonable/probative cause".

In Europe, you have to have a regular test (varies from once a year to once every three years). This is legislated and, in some places, you have to take the car to a government station and in others to a private concern with government controlled equipment. Without the test, you are liable to a heavy fine and you cannot renew the licence. Tests in most countries include: exhaust gases, brakes, steering geometry, tyres, lights, oil leaks, exhaust system leaks, wipers, chassis condition etc. I assumed that this would be similar in the USA.

I take a different view of the power source used to charge PHEV's. Fact is that many non-nuclear power plants are more thermally efficient than the ICE in any hybrid, PHEV or regular vehicle; gas/oil fired generating stations being ~60% and ICE's being no more than 34%, and that's for a maxed out racing engine. Street engines are typically 20%-24% efficient.

You know as well as I do that this is a distortion of the truth. a) Most thermal power stations from fuel to electricity have an efficiency of ~30%. The CHP ones with higher efficiencies are very few and far between. b) Most thermal power stations are grossly polluting with no measures to reduce the emissions. c) The average transmission loses are approaching 10% before they reach your power socket. d) The average battery efficiency is <80%. e) The average efficiency of power stored in the battery that reaches your wheels is ~80% (motor 93%, other electrics taking the rest. So, from fuel to wheels, your overall efficiency would be 17%, which is much lower than an ICE.

The ICE in a Prius is an Atkinson engine, with a fuel>mechanical output at the crankshaft efficiency of 40%. Other modern engines with electronic variable valve cycles average 30-35%. I agree that a typical engine of 20 years ago, with fixed valve cycles, 2 valves/cylinder, flat head pistons, carburettor fuel feed etc. was dismal, but we have evolved a lot in engine design since the introduction of the computer into the engine compartment. It is possible that the old engine designs are still used for some cheap V8 pickups and so on.

As for the battery charging ICE's in extended range PHEV's like the Volt they are very likely to be better than those in (P)HEV's and "normal" cars because of their small size (1 liter/3 cyl turbocharged for GM's E-Flex) and narrow operational RPM range.

I agree that you can up the efficiency with a constant speed engine.

As far as having the electrical capacity for charging them; the DOE and some environmental groups have already co-studied that and found that the US off-peak generating capacity is more than up to the task.

Not if EVs or PHEVs become mainstream.