When will it end?

[ALBPM]

This will save us all....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7pGt_O1uM8

GUN FREE ZONES
"The Crime Control Act of 1990" was viewed by most as unimportant anti-crime legislation, but the "unintended consequences" have been tragic. It was the "The Crime Control Act of 1990" that established "gun free school zones."

Between the first school killings and the second, 195 years went by without incident. See the list below. Between the Poe Elementary attack and the Stockton School shootings, the "reason" for "gun free school zones," another 30 years went by, with six intervening incidents. In the 225 years between and including the Enoch Brown school massacre and the Stockton shootings there were a total of nine incidents.

You remember Pres. George H.W. Bush, the man who gave us the "New World Order," right? Well, it was he who signed the 1990 crime bill into law, establishing "gun free school zones."

Since "gun free school zones" were established eighteen years ago, there have been an additional sixty-nine incidents. That is more than seven times as many, in the past 17 years, as in the preceding 225 years. Those sixty-nine incidents account for an additional 142 dead and more than 198 wounded. Apparently psychotics prefer killing zones where no one is likely to shoot back. It is time to do away with "gun free school zones."


July 26, 1764 thriugh May 20, 1988


Enoch Brown school massacre - Franklin County, Pennsylvania, July 26, 1764

Poe Elementary School Attack - Houston, Texas, September 15, 1959

University of Texas at Austin massacre - Austin, Texas, August 1, 1966

Jackson State killings - Jackson, Mississippi, May 14-15, 1970

California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre - Fullerton, California, July 12, 1976

Parkway South Junior High School shooting - Saint Louis, Missouri,
January 20, 1983

Laurie Dann - Hubbards Woods Elementary School; Winnetka, Illinois, May 20, 1988


Stockton massacre - Stockton, California, January 17, 1989

It was the Stockton shootings by Patrick Purdey that prompted the gun free zone legislation. Five children were killed and 31 were injured by Purdey, who used a legally purchased AK-47, to commit the deed. California law at the time required a 15 day waiting period and a background check to make the purchase and Purdey passed without a problem, but he shouldn't have.

Although Purdey pulled the trigger, the entire California criminal justice system was also complicit in the massacre. It was only because prosecutors and judges allowed Purdy to plea down his crimes, that he was never convicted of a felony and therefore was able to legally purchase that AK-47. In 1979 Purdey was arrested for extortion and the possession of dangerous weapons. The following year, 1980, he was arrested for sex crimes. In 1982 he was arrested for possession of drugs. In 1983 he was arrested twice, for dangerous weapons and receiving stolen property. In 1984 he was arrested for attempted robbery and conspiracy. And in 1987 he was arrested on weapons charges and resisting arrest. The probation report noted that he was a danger to himself and others.

Seven times Purdey faced serious criminal charges and seven times the courts dropped or plea bargained away the felony charges. Unfortunately, this goes on in our court systems on a daily basis. Judges who allow felons to go free, who then commit a capital crime, should be held responsible as an accomplice to that crime. Perhaps then, judges who allow these people to go free to commit further crimes, might think twice before doing so.


"Gun Free Zones" are now in place.

Most of the following are the "unintended consequences" of gun free school zone legislation. This list is probably incomplete.

The use of "School Unknown" in the list below means that the article, or data base, the information was drawn from did not provide the name of the school in question.

Also, many of the shooters were "off their meds", but drug companies, manufacturers of said "meds," have paid the families of the shooters not to mention the fact. So it is impossible to determine exactly how many were drug related. My guess would be upwards of 90%.


University of Iowa shooting - Iowa City, Iowa, November 1, 1991

Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting - Great Barrington, Massachusetts, December 14, 1992

Montclair High School shooting - Montclair, California, October 18, 1995

Richland High School shooting - Lynnville, Tennessee, November 15, 1995

Frontier Junior High shooting - Moses Lake, Washington, February 2, 1996

School Unknown shooting, St. Louis, Missouri, February 29, 1996

School Unknown shooting, Atlanta, Georgia, September 25, 1996

School Unknown shooting, St. Louis, Missouri, October 31, 1996

School Unknown shooting, West Palm Beach, Florida, January 27, 1997

Regional High School shooting, Bethel, Alaska, February 19, 1997

Pearl High School shooting, Pearl, Mississippi, October 1, 1997

School Unknown shooting, Norwalk, California, October 22, 1997

Heath High School shooting, West Paducah, Kentucky, December 1, 1997

Stamps High School shooting, Stamps, Arkansas, December 15, 1997

Jonesboro massacre - Jonesboro, Arkansas, March 24, 1998

Parker Middle School shooting, Edinboro, Pennsylvania, April 24, 1998

School Unknown shooting, Pomona, California, April 28, 1998

Lincoln County High School shooting, Fayetteville, Tennessee, May 19, 1998

Thurston High School shooting - Springfield, Oregon, May 21, 1998

School Unknown shooting, Columbia, South Carolina, June 6, 1998

School Unknown shooting, Houston Texas, May 21, 1998

Armstrong High School shooting, Richmond, Virginia, June 15, 1998

Columbine High School massacre - Littleton, Colorado, April 20, 1999

Heritage High School shooting - Conyers, Georgia, May 20, 1999

Deming Middle School shooting, Deming, New Mexico, November 19, 1999

Fort Gibson Middle School shooting, Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, December 6, 1999

Beach High School shooting, Savannah, Georgia, March 10, 2000

School Unknown shooting, Lake Worth, Florida, United States, May 26, 2000

School Unknown shooting, New Orleans, Louisiana, September 26, 2000

School Unknown shooting, Glendale, Arizona, October 24, 2000

School Unknown shooting, Oxnard, California, January 10, 2001

Lake Clifton Eastern High School, Baltimore, Maryland, January 17, 2001

School Unknown shooting, Elmira, New York, February 14, 2001

Santana High School - Santee, California, March 5, 2001

School Unknown shooting, Williamsport, Pennsylvania, March 7, 2001

Granite Hills High School shooting, El Cahon, California, March 22, 2001

School Unknown shooting, Gary, Indiana, March 30, 2001

Martin Luther King Jr. High School shooting, New York, New York, January 15, 2002

Appalachian School of Law shooting - Grundy, Virginia, January 16, 2002

School Unknown shooting, San Antonio, Texas, October 4, 2002

Wind River Middle School shooting, Carson, Washington, December 12, 2002

Englewood High School shooting, Chicago, Illinois, December 16, 2002

School Unknown shooting, Jenks, Oklahoma, United States; January 30, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Westminister, Colorado, United States; February 5, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Guttenberg, Iowa, United States; March 17, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Washington, D.C., United States; April 1, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Addison, Texas, United States; April 16, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States; April 24, 2003

School Unknown shooting, Columbus, Georgia, United States; August 14, 2003

Rocori High School shootings - Cold Spring, Minnesota, September 24, 2003

Southwood Middle School tragedy, Miami, Florida; February 3, 2004

School Unknown shooting, Maywood, Illinois, United States; August 30, 2004

North Philadelphia High School shooting, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States; November 22, 2004

Lakeside High School shooting, Nine Mile Falls, Washington, United States; December 10, 2004

Red Lake High School massacre - Red Lake, Minnesota, March 21, 2005

Campbell County High School - Jacksboro, Tennessee: November 8, 2005

School Unknown shooting, Essex, Vermont, United States;August 25, 2006

School Unknown shooting, Van Nuys, California, United States; September 13, 2006

Platte Canyon High School shooting - Bailey, Colorado, September 27, 2006

Weston High School shooting, Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29, 2006

Amish school shooting - Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, October 2, 2006

Henry Foss High School - Tacoma, Washington, United States January 3, 2007

Virginia Tech massacre - Blacksburg, Virginia, April 16, 2007
O. E. Green School - Oxnard, California, February 14, 2008
North Illinois University - Decalb, Illinois, February 14, 2008
I didn't include the Kent State shootings because that was a completely different set of circumstances. While a tragedy, it doesn't qualify for this list.

In the U.S., forty-eight states now have concealed carry laws on the books. In a comperhensive study of all public, multiple shooting incidents in America between 1977 and 1999, John Lott and Bill Landes found that concealed carry laws were the only laws that had any beneficial effect. Think about that! And the effect was significant. States with concealed carry laws on the books, reduced multiple shooting attacks by 60% and reduced death and injury from these attacks by 80%.

http://www.thepatriotexchange.com/gunfree.htm

[Dr Mordrid]

Bingo!

Even if it isn't necessarily a deterrent then carrying does often put potential defenders at the scene. All it takes is one to grow a pair and put a well placed shot in the perp. A great example is the gal who did just this during the church shooting last summer, putting him down. After that he self-executed, but her action no doubt saved many lives.

[Brian Ellis]

Doc raises a point about Utah and I would raise a point that there may be a confounding factor there in that the public schools and universities (JBY) are all essentially run by the LDSs. I have stayed in SLC and Moab for several days two times each and Ogden once plus even a weekend on a dude ranch north of Bluff (believe it or not). I found the inhabitants of the state generally more laid back than in most other states. Does the underlying Mormonism induce a different value to life, even to the non-followers of the faith? Maybe doctors don't need to prescribe anti-depressants willy-nilly??? Who can tell?

As for the shocking list of incidents that Albpm has supplied, I never realised just how frequent it had become. I would like to see a similar list for Europe and Canada as points of comparison, on a per capita basis (Canada fewer, Europe more population). I can think offhand of only three (Dunblane and two in Germany) school shootings, but there may well have been many more with less serious consequences.

Anyway, to take the thread title, 'When will it end?' I fear not in the immediate, until we understand better the mechanisms (probably more than one: it is facile to say anti-depressants, but what causes the condition requiring them and are they prescribed and taken correctly and with what confounding factors, such as alcohol, other drugs -- recreational as well as ethical, tobacco and so on?).

Without wishing to enter the political arena, in the meanwhile, reducing the access of firearms to the younger generations would seem to be an excellent stop-gap measure but I know not how with the current mindset.

[Dr Mordrid]

The Mormons I know (40+ years of friendship) are indeed less stressed out than most folks elsewhere, but that's not the issue. Mis-perception of the problems scope is.

School shootings have actually been going down since at least 1993. What's changed is that we now have 24/7/365 news cycles on the internet, cable and satellite. That makes them seem more common now, but the truth is a different matter.

The truth of the matter is that on average several times the number of kids die from the flu or pneumonia as die from school shootings.

That said I stand by my assertion that allowing civilians licensed by the state to carry firearms should be allowed to do so on college campuses. They are by definition adults who meet the states criteria, which includes taking a course, and recent studies show that statistically they are the least likely group to commit a murder....even less likely than police officers or security guards.

Youth Violence Project - U of Virginia....

This 2003 editorial from the LA Times is rather informative, even if it was written by a gun advocate;

(By the way; I have several relatives who are police officers and they have all espoused the same opinions held by Mr. Lott.)

Letting Teachers Pack Guns Will Make America's Schools Safer

By John R. Lott Jr.

Banning guns from schools seems the obvious way to keep children safe. Utah, though, is doing the opposite, and is stirring up debate across the nation.

Acting under a new state law, school districts across Utah have started drawing up regulations allowing teachers and other public employees to carry concealed guns on school property. Opponents are still trying to fight the law, and at first glance their concern about firearms in schools is understandable. Last Sunday in New Jersey, an attack by armed teenagers against three fellow students and randomly chosen townspeople was narrowly averted.

But that's not the whole picture. Consider an analogy: Suppose a criminal is stalking you or your family. Would you feel safe putting a sign in front of your home saying, "This Home Is a Gun-Free Zone"? Law-abiding citizens might be pleased by such a sign, but to criminals it would be an invitation.

In 1985, just eight states had right-to-carry laws — laws that automatically grant permits for concealed weapons once applicants pass a criminal background check, pay their fees and, when required, complete a training class. Today, 35 states do.

Examining all the multiple-victim public shootings in the United States from 1977 to 1999 shows that on average, states that adopt right-to-carry laws experience a 60% drop in the rates at which the attacks occur, and a 78% drop in the rates at which people are killed or injured from such attacks.

To the extent such attacks still occurred in right-to-carry states, they overwhelmingly take place in so-called "gun-free zones." Indeed, the attack last week in Meridian, Miss., in which five people were killed took place in a Lockheed Martin plant where employees were forbidden to have guns.

The effect of right-to-carry laws is greater on multiple-victim public shootings than on other crimes for a simple reason: Increasing the probability that someone will be able to protect himself improves deterrence. Though it may be statistically unlikely that any single person in a crowd is carrying a concealed handgun, the probability that at least one person is armed is high.

Contrary to many people's impressions, before the federal law was enacted in 1995 it was possible for teachers and other adults with concealed-handgun permits to carry guns on school property in many states.

Many of the concerns about accidents and other problems are unwarranted. The real problems at schools occurred only after the ban. The rash of student shootings at schools began in October 1997 in Pearl, Miss.

Public reaction against guns is understandable, given the horrific events shown on TV. But the more than 2 million times each year that Americans use guns defensively are never discussed. In more than 90% of those cases, simply brandishing a weapon is sufficient to cause a criminal to break off an attack. My research also shows that citizens with guns helped stop about a third of the post-1997 public school shootings, stepping in before uniformed police could arrive.

Last year, news broadcasts on the three main TV networks carried about 190,000 words on gun crime stories. Not one segment featured a civilian using a gun to stop a crime. Newspapers are not much better.

Police are extremely important in deterring crime, but they almost always arrive after the crime has been committed. Annual surveys of crime victims in the United States by the Justice Department show that when confronted by a criminal, people are safest if they have a gun.

Just as the threat of arrest and prison can deter criminals, so can the fact that victims can defend themselves.

For multiple-victim shootings, the biggest factor determining the amount of harm is the length of time between when an attack starts and when someone with a gun can stop the attack. The longer the delay, the more are harmed.

Good intentions do not necessarily make good laws. What counts is whether the laws ultimately save lives. Unfortunately, too many gun laws primarily disarm law-abiding citizens, not criminals.

[Paddy]

Just looking at your figures. That homicide peak looks suprising. Do you have any better figures?

Source: Office for National Statistics
(Not ideal data, but the best I could do in 20mins)

In 2000, the suicide rate peaked here in the UK at 8/100 000 males, and 3/100 000 females (aged 5-15 years). The prevelance of all mental health disorders in the same age group and for the same time frame is 11.4% and 7.6% respectively.

The total number of deaths by homicide in England & Wales in 1997 was 650 which is 1.2/100 000

[Brian Ellis]

The Mormons I know (40+ years of friendship) are indeed less stressed out than most folks elsewhere, but that's not the issue. Mis-perception of the problems scope is.

School shootings have actually been going down since at least 1993.

This does not appear to be the case, according to the list above:
1993 0
1994 0
1995 2
1996 4
1997 6
1998 8
1999 4
2000 4
2001 7
2002 5
2003 8
2004 4
2005 2
2006 5
2007 2
2008 4 (in the past week alone)

Averaging 4.3/year: counting the average as 4, only 2 years since 2000 have been significantly below average.

The truth of the matter is that on average several times the number of kids die from the flu or pneumonia as die from school shootings.

Of course that is true but is a total non-sequitur designed to obfuscate the issue. You can also say that many more are killed in traffic accidents but effective measures HAVE been taken to reduce these deaths (safer cars, prevention campaigns, better surveillance outside schools, better driver awareness etc.). Also fewer kids die of natural causes today. No effective measures have been take to reduce school shootings.

On the known basis that violence breeds violence, all that arming teachers will do is to put them at greater risk, as the kids will take them down first, instead of their peers. It needs a much more profound study and concrete measures to reduce the frequency of these events by tackling the source and not the effect.

[DukeP]

We have had 1 school shooting in Denmark. Obviously, with only 6.000.000 inhabitants, thats hard to compare to the US figures.

But - and this is where its interesting - the general public opinion was - oh, what a shame. 2 died, 2 injured. Lets get the survivors some help - and then move on.

No new laws where passed, nothing more than a notice in the daily news.

Why?

Unfortunately because its such a lesser evil. We have far, far more people being killed in traffic.

I think the discussion about a few people being shot in schools should be weighted against the reality of the numbers of overall deaths from non-natural causes.

After all theres little difference between getting shot dead og getting killed by a car - dead is dead - .

~~DukeP~~

[ALBPM]

One major step in controlling this would be for parents to start being parents again......

One trend I've noticed is minors under the age of 18 yrs....amassing large numbers of firearms and building bombs in their parent's garage as in the case of the Columbine killers...

My parents knew what I was up to all the time while I lived with them..

[Dr Mordrid]

This does not appear to be the case

You should have followed the link I provided to the U of Va. Youth Violence Projects page....

Figures: National School Safety Center

Contrary to public perception, school homicides declined after 1993, although from 1997 to 1999 there was a series of copycat shootings stimulated by unprecedented media coverage.

[KRSESQ]

One major step in controlling this would be for parents to start being parents again......

One trend I've noticed is minors under the age of 18 yrs....amassing large numbers of firearms and building bombs in their parent's garage as in the case of the Columbine killers...

My parents knew what I was up to all the time while I lived with them..

THIS!

I've never crunched the numbers, but it certainly appears that many of the problems facing youth these days, from drugs to violence, have grown endemic in our society as a result of two-income families, and children being raised by day-care instead of by their parents. virtually every study I've ever read gives children with one stay-at-home parent a definite advantage over children both of whose parents work outside the home.

Yeah, for many families having one parent stay home with the kids (father or mother, it doesn't matter) does create financial hardship. It means they won't be able to afford that McMansion in Marina Bay, or that new Escalade or Wii or premium tier cable service. But people can't seem to get it into their heads that their children would be far richer for it later in life, when it REALLY matters, when they become parents themselves.

And before you jump on me, I know this isn't a realistic option for single-parent households. What we should be doing in those situations is to make it easier for single-parents to form partnerships and merge their households, with tax incentives for doing so, as long as ONE of those partners fills the role of the stay-at-home.

THIS more than anything else would, IMHO, do more to stem the tide of gun violence and drug abuse in our youth population than all the gun bans and antidepressants our tax dollars can buy.

Now, who do I talk to about becoming President?

Kevin

[cjolley]

There is something wrong with that list, at least by cursory examination.

1, Jackson State killings In this case the police were the only shooters. Nothing to do with this subject at all.


2, January 30, 2003: Jenks, Oklahoma A 17-year-old male student armed with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun climbed onto the roof of the school’s gym and threatened suicide. He also pointed the gun at an assistant principal and later surrendered peacefully.

This was not a shooting at all.

An Oklahoma shooting was left out. A few years ago an avid hunter type kid sniped some kids praying around the flag at a school one morning in eastern Oklahoma. Of course, that situation does not support the story line, so it was left out of the list.

This list does not appear to bear close scrutiny.
I doubt if the impression that is left is accurate.

Though Doc has a good point that having Bill Clinton as president lowered school shootings over time.
And that having George Bush as president has lead to an increase in shootings over time.
That's as good a correlation as anything else that has been brought up in this thread.

[ALBPM]

KRSESQ for President!!!1

[Brian Ellis]

You should have followed the link I provided to the U of Va. Youth Violence Projects page....

Figures: National School Safety Center

PLEEEEEZE, compare apples with apples. The NSSC chart shows the number of violent deaths, NOT the number of shootings, according to:

DEFINITION:
A school-associated violent death is any homicide, suicide, or weapons-related violent death in the United States in which the fatal injury occurred:

1) on the property of a functioning public, private or parochial elementary or secondary school, Kindergarten through grade 12, (including alternative schools);

2) on the way to or from regular sessions at such a school;

3) while person was attending or was on the way to or from an official school-sponsored event;

4) as an obvious direct result of school incident/s, function/s or activities, whether on or off school bus/vehicle or school property.

* Note: Not a scientific survey. Since information is taken from newspaper clipping services, it is possible that not all such clippings have reached the NSSC.

You said "School shootings have actually been going down since at least 1993." This is simply not the case. The number of deaths may be marginally lower, but that is not what you said (even that can start to be disputed over the last couple of years, which are conveniently missing from your chart). Most of the deaths in the early part of your chart were due to knives, jumping off buildings and so on, not due to firearms.

[Dr Mordrid]

The Virginia Model for Student Threat Assessment (PDF)

The Virginia Model for Student Threat Assessment

by Dewey G. Cornell, Ph.D.

University of Virginia

Each time there is a highly publicized school shooting, there is widespread
concern that school violence is rampant in the United States. For example, after the 1999
Columbine shooting, a Gallup poll found that two-thirds of Americans believed that a
similar incident could happen at schools in their community (Saad, 1999). Zero tolerance
policies were greatly expanded nationwide so that students were expelled for seemingly
minor offenses such as bringing a plastic knife to school, pointing a finger like a gun, or
shooting a paper clip with a rubber band (Cornell, 2006).

After several high profile shootings in the fall of 2006, there were renewed
recommendations to arm teachers with guns (Associated Press, 2006b) and even a call to
issue Kevlar-coated textbooks to students for use as bullet shields (Associated Press,
2006a). A Fort Worth suburban school division went so far as to hire a former military
officer to train students to attack and subdue an armed gunman (Dallas Morning News,
2006). Rather than rely on unrealistically heroic measures, it may be more useful to
consider less dramatic but more practical prevention approaches that can be implemented
well before a gunman appears on school property. Strategies to maintain school safety
must be based on a factual assessment of the risk of violent crime and objective evidence
of what prevention methods are effective.

SCHOOL HOMICIDES ARE RARE

Objectively, student-perpetrated homicides are rare events in the nation’s 119,000
schools. There were 103 such cases during the 12 school years from 1992-93 to 2003-04,
which means an average of 8.58 per year. Although even one school homicide is too
many, an event that affects an average of 8.58 schools out of 119,000 means that the
average school can expect a student-perpetrated homicide about once every 13,870 years
(119,000 divided by 8.58; Cornell, 2006). Clearly the fear of school homicides as
imminent or pervasive events is inaccurate. In contrast, every school must deal with
student fights, threats, and bullying on a regular basis. School authorities should not lose
perspective on the need for fair and proportionate discipline policies and practices for
these frequent problems.

FACTS ABOUT YOUTH VIOLENCE AND SCHOOL SAFETY

The belief that juvenile violence is increasing or that schools are not safe is a
serious misconception. According to the Youth Risk Behavior Surveys administered
nationally to over ten thousand students each year, there have been declines of 21% in
physical fighting and 48% in weapon carrying at school from 1993 to 2003 (Brener,
Lowry, Barrios, Simon, & Eaton, 2004). Results from self-report surveys are consistent
with other sources of information indicating a downward trend in juvenile violent crime,
including violent crime in schools. Although there are limitations to any single source of
information about violent crime, the evidence from multiple sources is consistent in
indicating an overall decline in school violence from the early 1990’s to recent years.
(See charts below.)
>

[Brian Ellis]

Although there are limitations to any single source of
information about violent crime, the evidence from multiple sources is consistent in
indicating an overall decline in school violence from the early 1990’s to recent years.

In terms of deaths from all causes, but not in terms of shootings.