THIS is the reason why I support Death Penalty.

[TransformX]

To you all: I don't understand how the bible is relevant. I can't believe that any of you needs the bible to tell you that beating a kid to death is wrong. In fact, having read many of your discussions over the years, I don't understand why you need to quote the bible to explain/justify anything!
Nasty little book that bible, full of threats of damnation and death wrapped around with the "spread the love" message.

Executing a bunch of kids for the horrible thing they did is easy, fixing the circumstances that led a group KIDS to brutally killing an apparently harmless teenager, thats the hard part.

From an older thread:

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and was very much in favor of the redistribution of wealth. She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, a feeling she openly expressed.

Based on the lectures that she had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the addition of more government welfare programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing in school.

Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she spent all her time studying.

Her father listened and then asked, "How is your friend Audrey doing?"

She replied, "Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus; college for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties, and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over."

Her wise father asked his daughter,

"Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA."

The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back,
"That wouldn't be fair! I have worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!"

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, “Welcome to the Republican Party."

Now you tell me, who's going to pay for 'fixing' their lives?

[NetSnake]

I didn't say that it would be an easy thing to do. The fear of prison and the death penalty is obviously not preventing 100% so one can either forget about it until the next time it happens or can do something to prevent the existence of an environment where a group of teenagers thinks its OK to murder.
and yes I do understand that it is much much more complicated than I describe it
and yes, we will pay for it. In fact, we already are.

[TransformX]

I didn't say that it would be an easy thing to do. The fear of prison and the death penalty is obviously not preventing 100% so one can either forget about it until the next time it happens or can do something to prevent the existence of an environment where a group of teenagers thinks its OK to murder.
and yes I do understand that it is much much more complicated than I describe it
and yes, we will pay for it. In fact, we already are.

They fear prison and the death penalty, trust me, they do. What they don't fear is the police or the law. They never thought they'll be caught and even if they do get caught, nothing too bad will happen.

[Brian Ellis]

They fear prison and the death penalty, trust me, they do.

The voice of experience, no doubt!

If that were the case, it seems strange that the countries where the prisons are most full (per capita) are those that have the death penalty and those that have the fewest inmates (again per capita) are those that abolished the death penalty for civil crimes the longest time ago.

The F.B.I. Uniform Crime Reports Division Publication, "Crime in the U.S." shows 2005 homicide rates in states which did not have the death penalty averaged 4.03 homicides per 100,000 population; states still using the death penalty averaged 5.87 homicides

A 1999 FBI study showed the 2004 per capita murder rate in Iowa was 1.6, while the per capita murder rate in Missouri was 6.2. Iowa has the lowest per capita murder rate of any of the eight states that are contiguous to Missouri, and is the only one that does not have the death penalty. (All of the other 7 states, except Nebraska had a per capita murder rate of 4.5 or higher.)

A 1995 Hart Research Poll of police chiefs of major cities found that they do not believe that the death penalty is an effective law enforcement tool. These police chiefs ranked the death penalty as dead last in the tools that are effective in reducing violent crime.

Missouri resumed executions in 1989. From 1989 to 1992, the Missouri homicide rate rose from 7.9 to 10.5 per 100,000 people; Missouri's national homicide rate ranking rose from 19th to 13th.

After studying the statistics on the murder of police officials from 1989 to 1999, the FBI concluded that those states with the highest number of death penalty convictions and executions have the highest number of law enforcement officer murders. California had the highest and has the highest number of people sentenced to death. Texas had the second highest and has the highest rate of execution in death penalty cases. Florida is third and is the third highest number of people sentenced to death.

Texas, the state executing the most people from 1982 through the end of 1994, ranked among the top 10 homicidal states during each of those years. In all but two of the years, Texas was in the top four.

A 1984 study by Scott Decker and Carol Kohfeld, "An Empirical Analysis of the Effect of the Death Penalty in Missouri" concludes:

Perhaps no criminal sanction has received the empirical scrutiny that capital punishment has. But most previous analyses have been flawed by a variety of methodological deficiencies. Among other shortcomings, past studies have either used the wrong level of analysis, failed to include the relevant socio-demographic variables or neglected to examine this issue over a time series long enough to overcome the lag issue. In the current analysis a time series of 48 years for the State of Missouri was employed to assess the deterrent effect of executions. No deterrent effect could be determined from any of four analyses—graphed eras, difference of mean homicide rates for threat, use, and abolition periods, correlations, and a multivariate analysis. The implications of this research are unequivocal—those who support the use of the death penalty for Missouri do so solely on retributive grounds.

Conclusion

Studies over many years have found no credible evidence that the death penalty deters people from committing violent crimes. Deterrence based on the threat of punishment requires a criminal who is thinking rationally, and that describes almost no one who commits a capital murder. To the contrary, the fact that we use capital punishment sends a clear message that killing is accepted in our society as an appropriate response to wrongful conduct. The large majority of those who commit capital murders were seriously abused as cildren or in other ways feel victimized by society. The message sent by having a death penalty may lead such individuals to believe that violence is an appropriate response to their suffering. Some studies of deterrence actually point to this effect instead.

Link

Violence begets violence and state-sanctioned violence begets the most violence

[KRSESQ]

The death penalty might be considered more of a deterrence to someone inclined to premeditate a murder, than to someone who kills in a moment of passion or during the commission of another crime.

One who kills during the commission of another crime is not considering possible penalties at all, since they most likely adopted a "take what you can and everyone else be damned" attitude long ago.

Such people often value their own hides no more highly than that of their victims. The "gonna die someday, might as well go down in a blaze of glory" mindset.

Under such circumstances, for such individuals, "euthanasia" might be the most merciful option.

And the safest for society as a whole (in theory).

Kevin

/done editing now.

[KRSESQ]

To you all: I don't understand how the bible is relevant. I can't believe that any of you needs the bible to tell you that beating a kid to death is wrong. In fact, having read many of your discussions over the years, I don't understand why you need to quote the bible to explain/justify anything!
Nasty little book that bible, full of threats of damnation and death wrapped around with the "spread the love" message.

Executing a bunch of kids for the horrible thing they did is easy, fixing the circumstances that led a group KIDS to brutally killing an apparently harmless teenager, thats the hard part.

QFT (with minor reservations).

Kevin

[TransformX]

The voice of experience, no doubt!

If that were the case, it seems strange that the countries where the prisons are most full (per capita) are those that have the death penalty and those that have the fewest inmates (again per capita) are those that abolished the death penalty for civil crimes the longest time ago.

Link

And that proves what exactly? If they're not afraid to die, why are you protecting them from it? If you conclude that 6 people out of 100,000 who commit homicide are automatically unafraid of prison or death, or maybe the whole country just because they have a death penalty, your logic circuits are a true enigma to me.

Violence begets violence and state-sanctioned violence begets the most violence

And that silly quote has what to do with anything?
Imprisonment is state-sanctioned violence, should we release all prisoners now?
Should we pat all serial murderers on the shoulder and say "good work!"? Give me a break and think before you write or quote meaningless blabbering that has nothing to do with reality will you? First you fail with religion, then you fail with morals and philosophy, now what, silly quotes and useless statistics?

[Brian Ellis]

And that proves what exactly? If they're not afraid to die, why are you protecting them from it? If you conclude that 6 people out of 100,000 who commit homicide are automatically unafraid of prison or death, or maybe the whole country just because they have a death penalty, your logic circuits are a true enigma to me.

And that silly quote has what to do with anything?
Imprisonment is state-sanctioned violence, should we release all prisoners now?
Should we pat all serial murderers on the shoulder and say "good work!"? Give me a break and think before you write or quote meaningless blabbering that has nothing to do with reality will you? First you fail with religion, then you fail with morals and philosophy, now what, silly quotes and useless statistics?

You really are so stupid with your non-sequiturs, jumping around like a gr****opper in your arguments, or rather your lack of arguments.

I don't recollect anyone saying that these guys were afraid or not afraid of death or imprisonment, so what has that to do with it. We are talking about deterrents. If prison were a deterrent, there would be no need to have prisons because no one would commit crimes. Many of these people actually welcome prison where they are looked after with 3 meals/day as an alternative to a life in the sewers or suchlike. You, in your ivory tower, have zero idea what life is like on the wrong side of the tracks. So please don't pontificate utter rubbish,

Let me re-quote just one sentence from my earlier post

Deterrence based on the threat of punishment requires a criminal who is thinking rationally, and that describes almost no one who commits a capital murder.

You, in the comfort of your own place, simply have no idea what goes on in the mind of these people. You are too brash to care about them. Your notion of "stick them away where they won't bother me and preferably kill them" sounds as if it is something from the Middle Ages, not the 21st century.

[TransformX]

I don't recollect anyone saying that these guys were afraid or not afraid of death or imprisonment , so what has that to do with it.

Look a few posts up:

The voice of experience, no doubt!

That was in reply to me saying they're afraid of prison and death.

We are talking about deterrents. If prison were a deterrent, there would be no need to have prisons because no one would commit crimes. Many of these people actually welcome prison where they are looked after with 3 meals/day as an alternative to a life in the sewers or suchlike. You, in your ivory tower, have zero idea what life is like on the wrong side of the tracks. So please don't pontificate utter rubbish,

I dare you to abolish prisons and we'll see where the crime rate will be at. You, Mr. "I worked for the U.N.", have no idea where I live or what I've been through. Now you stop typing with your rear end, will you?

You, in the comfort of your own place, simply have no idea what goes on in the mind of these people. You are too brash to care about them. Your notion of "stick them away where they won't bother me and preferably kill them" sounds as if it is something from the Middle Ages, not the 21st century.

I read the news, I read about a man who carefully planned the murder of his girlfriend and her daughter, knowing they had no relatives, so he can inherit their home, among many other murder cases. Now -you- tell me those people who could carefully plan an almost clean murder are incapable of sentient logical thought. You don't know who I've been associated with, you don't know who is my family, you just type from -your- ivory tower, thinking all kind of fantastic thoughts without as much as a narrow base of knowledge of human nature and you come to lecture ME, who live on the bad side of a major city, who's been around all types of people, who lives in a country filled with violence. Do you really think you can lecture me about anything? You don't even know your own bible, yet you try to argue religion with me. Brian, with all due respect, even with your old age, you still have much to learn.

[Dr Mordrid]

Brian, with all due respect, even with your old age, you still have much to learn.

It's not just Brian but a lot of people in Europe and here to have had it far too easy since WWII, thinking civility can be imposed by fiat and education. No. Wrong.

Even without violent ideology there is about 10% of the human race that are psychotic or damned close to it, and a lot of them are dangerous. These folks don't just steal for their needs but because they enjoy it, and most aren't adverse to a little sadism along the way.

In my medical life I was exposed to thousands of these people, and believe me nothing changes them. It's just plain endemic. Matters not how it got that way, nature or nurture - and I lean strongly towards nature in most cases, we've got a lot of dangerous folks running around.

To make things safer these folks either have to be locked up permanently in asylums, which they aren't now because of the 'psychiatric reform' laws of the 70's and 80's, jailed forever, which is losing favor in some circles because of high costs, or otherwise restrained.

Absent those restraints, and absent a cop on every door step, the people need the right to defend against them, PERIOD. There's an old saying in football and the military: "the best defense is a strong offense".

It's true, and the closer to the street you are the more true it is. I dare Brian etc. to walk down certain parts of the Cass Corridor in Detroit at night and not pray like a choirboy for a gun.

Speaking of weapons, look at the UK and the problem they're having with knife attacks. Next thing some legislator or group will insist on a knife ban and the sale of pre-sliced meat and pre-buttered bread, but even after that there'll be illegal knives, cricket clubs and, like Chicago, railroad ties or other lumber.

A never ending spiral because the weapon is just a tool, not the cause. See above.

Unless you want to live in a 1984 police state where there's a camera in every room with some professional perv watching each block and cop shops similarly distributed then the only other alternative is self defense with an effective tool, and the most effective tools are big bore guns and shotguns. And then even with the cops and cameras in many cases all the cops will be able to do is document the damage - it only takes 5 seconds or less to kill or seriously injure someone.

[TransformX]

It's not just Brian but a lot of people in Europe and here to have had it far too easy since WWII, thinking civility can be imposed by fiat and education. No. Wrong.

In the case of the Swiss, they never had it hard..

It's just like the PC crowd, same crap really. It's a bunch of people defending some abstract ideas that either have nothing to do with reality or simply go against common sense.
Jesus said "turn the other cheek", these guys say "oh dear, I must have done something to offend you, either directly or indirectly, now or earlier in history through my ancestors. Let me be your humble servant so you may pound my rear end, would I be allowed any vaseline? Of course I'll pay..."

[Brian Ellis]

In the case of the Swiss, they never had it hard..

It's just like the PC crowd, same crap really. It's a bunch of people defending some abstract ideas that either have nothing to do with reality or simply go against common sense.
Jesus said "turn the other cheek", these guys say "oh dear, I must have done something to offend you, either directly or indirectly, now or earlier in history through my ancestors. Let me be your humble servant so you may pound my rear end, would I be allowed any vaseline? Of course I'll pay..."

Plain ignorant and stupid. End of story.

[TransformX]

Plain ignorant and stupid. End of story.

And your credentials are?

[TransformX]

Andy Rooney On Prisoners:

Did you know that it costs forty-thousand dollars a year to house each prisoner? Gee, for forty-thousand bucks apiece, I'll take a few prisoners into my house. I live in Los Angeles. I already have bars on the windows. I don't think we should give free room and board to criminals. I think they should have to run twelve hours a day on a treadmill and generate electricity. And if they don't want to run, they can rest in the chair that's hooked up to the generator.

The death penalty is cheaper for society. Why does society have to pay twice, once when it's being robbed/murdered/whatever and once again to keep those criminals in a 'dignified' state of existence?
Anyone else wants to try and quote religion, morals or statistics?

[Umfriend]

Not that this has not remained a civilised and reasonable debate but should not this be moved to pol&rel?