More trouble for Toyota

[Dr Mordrid]

1. multiple law suits over injuries and damage caused by the acceleration problem. Expected.

2. BIG sales drop-off. Also expected.

3. now the Prius is being looked at by the Feds: link....

How much trouble could this be? Consider what happened to Audi when they had similar problems in 1986 with the 5000 - and I don't think they've fully recovered to this day.

Not helping is that it sounds like Toyota had to be pressured into the recall by the Transportation Dept.

LaHood: U.S. looking at Prius brakes

Transportation secretary will talk with Toyota's president

David Shepardson / Detroit News Washington Bureau

Washington -- Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said federal regulators are now investigating complaints about the brakes on Toyota Prius vehicles and whether electronics are a factor in complaints of sudden, unintended acceleration.

"We're going to keep the pressure on," LaHood said at a breakfast with reporters today sponsored by the Christian Science Monitor. LaHood also said he would "soon" talk with Toyota's president and CEO Akio Toyoda "to make sure they realize how serious this is."

But LaHood said Toyota's behavior was improving.

"I think they are pretty close to getting it," he said.

Toyota also has recalled 5.4 million vehicles linked to pedal entrapment on vehicles and another 2.3 million vehicles linked to sticky accelerator pedals -- with millions more being recalled around the world. It has stopped production at six North American assembly plants and halted sales of 8 models for other a week as it looked for a fix.

LaHood also defended the government's handing of its investigation of Toyota problems in recent years and said no evidence had emerged that Toyota had lied or misled government investigators. Two committees in Congress are reviewing all of Toyota's conduct since 2000 in relation to complaints.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration gets 30,000 complaints a year, and LaHood said the agency's internal review has shown no improper decisions by former administrations to close investigations. NHTSA had at least a half-dozen separate investigations into Toyota acceleration issues over the last decade.

Toyota didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.
>

[Dr Mordrid]

Related to the Toyota problem, but not limited to them.

This also means that just replacing mechanical parts isn't likely going to fix the problem.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-02-03-electromagnetic03_ST_N.htm

Electromagnetic signals' link to gas pedals probed

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is investigating whether electromagnetic signals such as those from radar and cellphones could interfere with electronic gas-pedal controls in vehicles including Toyotas.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood confirmed Wednesday that the government is investigating potential electrical problems. LaHood said NHTSA will conduct an investigation into electronic throttle control systems and potential electromagnetic interference in the nation's fleet of vehicles.

The agency plans to meet with Toyota and other manufacturers, suppliers and outside experts to better understand the electronics that control engine throttles and the safeguards to prevent problems when vehicles are exposed to "electromagnetic interference," or EMI.

Some plaintiffs' attorneys and consumer advocates say signals from radar, radio waves and other sources are causing vehicles' electronic throttles to accelerate on their own.

NHTSA plans to do more vehicle testing for EMI if interviews with auto industry officials and experts suggest it's necessary, said one official, who was not authorized to comment publicly.

NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigations on Tuesday interviewed United Kingdom-based electromagnetic interference expert Keith Armstrong, who says EMI is a "likely cause" of some of the unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles. Armstrong will testify as an expert witness in a Ford sudden-acceleration lawsuit in Florida this week.

EMI is a "major component" of two class-action lawsuits pending against Toyota, says West Virginia attorney Ben Bailey.

Toyota (TM) said in a statement late Tuesday: "After many years of exhaustive testing — by us and other outside agencies — we have found no evidence of a problem with our electronic throttle control system that could have caused unwanted acceleration. Our vehicles go through extensive electromagnetic radiation testing dynamically."

Automakers and regulators have been studying EMI for decades. A 1975 NHTSA report warned of possible future problems with EMI and the increasing use of vehicle electronics.

Charles Gauthier, who headed NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigations from 1992 to 1994, worked on a sudden-acceleration study during that time that exposed the vehicles to "all kinds of radioactive signals."

"There was nothing you could ever find that would give you the simultaneous full throttle as well as the simultaneous failure of the brake system," says Gauthier. "But that was with the level of electronics in '90s-era vehicles; it's different in 2009 or 2010."

[Brian Ellis]

I doubt whether EMI is a potential cause in the European cars. There are really draconian EU directives on this subject and EVERY electronic device must be proven to be free of emitting unwanted EMI over the whole spectrum up to ~10 GHz and must not respond to unwanted EM signals, with narrow and wide bandwidths and levels of <<1 V/m. This is necessary to obtain the mandatory CE logo on each device. It is illegal to make or import electronic devices of any type without the logo.

Much more likely would be tin whiskers caused by the use of solder conforming to the EU RoHS Directive, which is a can of squiggly worms escaping all over the place, but I still think this is a mechanical stiction problem (I have had exactly this happen on a rented Ford due to a combination of tolerances in the alignment of the pedal, a spring not quite strong enough and perhaps inadequate lubrication of the pedal hinge. It was disconcerting the first time, but I quickly learnt to hook the welt of my shoe under the pedal to bring it back up).

[Dr Mordrid]

Perhaps, but a lot of modern auto controls use a tech similar to bluetooth and its use is increasing almost daily. Never say never.

[Wulfman]

I thought it was not even allowed in the EU to have "drive (steering) by wire", much less have anything important transferred wirelessly.

mfg
wulfman

[Dr Mordrid]

Not all drive by wire is wireless, most isn't, but electric power steering (EPS or EPAS) has been common for several years - though still with a mechanical connection to the wheels, and electric "wedge" brakes are coming on hard. That said every major automaker I know of is working on a fully electric steering system that has no mechanical linkage. GM's SkateBoard chassis uses this. Siemens VDO was working on eCorner (wheel motor, wedge brake and full electric steering) before it was sold to Continental, and it sounds like work continues on it there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tLQ2-yKT4Y

Note the TMPS (tire pressure) sensor in the wheel. TMPS is required in the US as of 2007 and under consideration by the EU. The latest evolution is a battery-less unit that works like RFID.

[Technoid]

I doubt whether EMI is a potential cause in the European cars. There are really draconian EU directives on this subject and EVERY electronic device must be proven to be free of emitting unwanted EMI over the whole spectrum up to ~10 GHz and must not respond to unwanted EM signals, with narrow and wide bandwidths and levels of <<1 V/m. This is necessary to obtain the mandatory CE logo on each device. It is illegal to make or import electronic devices of any type without the logo.

Unfortunately for a lot of electric devices the CE could as well stand for "Chinese Export" since the manufactor can just slap on the markings

[Brian Ellis]

Unfortunately for a lot of electric devices the CE could as well stand for "Chinese Export" since the manufactor can just slap on the markings

Not strictly true. If it is a new design, then the full certified rigmarole is essential. If it is a modified design, then a reduced procedure checking the mods is sufficient, with the design engineer's green light. The weakness may lie in the certification of the test labs, but I cannot imagine Toyota & Co. taking short cuts, even if Hoo Flung Dung may.

Anyway, this whole affair is rife with speculation. I think Toyota's best bet at this stage would be:
a) give a detailed public technical explanation for each problem for those who could understand it
b) give a less detailed one for public consumption
c) give an assurance that all will be corrected ASAP
d) Toyota's bossman appear before the media, bow deeply with an anguished expression, apologise humbly and resign with immediate effect.

[Dr Mordrid]

Local news reporting today is that the Prius problem extends to all hybrids including the Sai and Lexus HS250h, is major and tied to the computer software that controls the regenerative braking system. Cars made since January are OK, but others will need modification.