Runaway Prius in California....

[cjolley]

A couple of point pertinent to this discussion:

First, this apparently from a Toyota :

Plus, the brakes on a Prius aren't brakes until you reach a speed of less than 15mph. At highway speeds, with the pedal depressed, no mechanical action is taking place.

If that was true then you couldn't brake when the battery was full.
The regenerative braking adjusts itself to the state of the battery charge.
It is variable, depending on the state of the battery.
It turns off completely if the battery is full because there is no place to send the energy.

We're getting into the realm of an awful lot of things going wrong all at the same time to cause this due to purely mechanical malfunction.

You don't suppose the whole thing runs on one computer do you?
If so and it crashed everything would go haywire.
Single point of failure = bad

[gt40]

A couple of point pertinent to this discussion:

First, this apparently from a Toyota Tech:

The gear shift in those cars are actually like a joystick. They return to the same position after being toggled to the desired gear....Plus, the brakes on a Prius aren't brakes until you reach a speed of less than 15mph. At highway speeds, with the pedal depressed, no mechanical action is taking place. What happens is, the electric motor turns in reverse causing the vehicle to slow down essentially making the electric motor a generator. The power that is generated is then stored in the battery pack for acceleration the next time you start off. They call it "regenerative braking". When an emergency situation occurs, the mechanical brakes are supposed to kick in, but only after the vehicle "senses" the driver trying to make a panic stop. They call that brake assist. In this situation, he had no choice but to do what he did. Its a good thing he didn't kill someone or himself. Thank god for the police officer and his instructions!!

Also, on any normal automatic vehicle, the steering lock will NOT engage unless the vehicle is in Park - for obvious safety reasons. If the Prius allows the lock to engage, there are obvious safety concerns here.

[gt40]

despite the recall plaguing Toyota, sales in Canada have gone up.
Interesting.

We don't pay attention to the news much.

[Elie]

despite the recall plaguing Toyota, sales in Canada have gone up.
Interesting.

[jms]

But it seems like half the damn cars i see on the road here are Pirus, and we are not getting the same issues here, it may be environmental or soemthing, but there is more then just toyota's screw up to it.

Isn't it obvious? Only in the USA can someone sue a company because they get served hot coffee etc etc. I'll bet good money the Prius cases have skyrocketed since it got out in the open, even though this has been a potential problem for Toyota for several years, at least since 2007.

[Dr Mordrid]

My misspelling - didn't notice, sorry. I really do know how to spell brake but was tired.

[cjolley]

P.S. It's really annoying me that a word like 'brake' is misspelled so often

Thanks, I've been staring at that work all through this thread trying to figure out why it looked wrong.

[Dr Mordrid]

Detroit News....

Not helpful...

Tundra recall expands

Toyota said Tuesday that it will expand a recall announced last year to fix Tundras with frames that could rust and lead to spare tires falling from the vehicle.

The recall will cover the 2000-03 model years in all 50 states.

A Toyota spokesman did not immediately know how many additional trucks would be covered; Toyota is to provide more details.

[gt40]

There's no doubt there will be plenty of people will use Toyota's current situation to blame their incompetence - and it will only add fuel to the media.



P.S. It's really annoying me that a word like 'brake' is misspelled so often - although in Toyota's case, it may be an unintended pun

[Dr Mordrid]

CJ: yes, the majority were user faults, but that still left a large number of vehicles where something else happened.

Another cause could be cruise controls;

Subaru recalled 128,000 vehicles because of a defect in the cruise control system that could engage full throttle.

in the mid to late 1990's Jeep Cherokee and Grand Cherokee sudden acceleration was caused by a current leakage pathway that resulted in actuation of the cruise control servo. When this happened the engine throttle went to the wide open position. Oopsie.

[KRSESQ]

It seems to me that the logical solution is an emergency kill-switch which would cut power to the ignition system without affecting the electric-assist steering or brakes.

Kevin

[VJ]

NEVER, EVER TURN OFF THE ENGINE WHILE DRIVING.
It's too easy to engage the steering wheel lock.

True... But you can turn off the car first, then turn the key back to second or even third position (thus not starting the car, but only activation electronics; steering lock in my car will only enable in the last position). Either way, even this would be my very last resort (and I'm sure the aforementioned options would work).

edit: I think that in my car (VW), the steering lock does not engage when there is a key in the ignition, but I should check this.

[cjolley]

NEVER, EVER TURN OFF THE ENGINE WHILE DRIVING.
It's too easy to engage the steering wheel lock.



@Doc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration

Audi 5000
During model years 1982-1987, Audi issued a series of recalls of Audi 5000 models[20] associated with reported incidents of sudden unintended acceleration linked to six deaths and 700 accidents.[20] At the time, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration ( NHTSA) was investigating 50 car models from 20 manufacturers for sudden surges of power.[21]
60 Minutes aired a report titled Out of Control on November 23, 1986,[22] featuring interviews with six people who had sued Audi after reporting unintended acceleration, including footage of an Audi 5000 ostensibly displaying a surge of acceleration while the brake pedal was depressed.[23][24][25] Subsequent investigation revealed that 60 Minutes had not disclosed they had engineered the vehicle's behavior — fitting a canister of compressed air on the passenger-side floor, linked via a hose to a hole drilled into the transmission[22][23] — the arrangement executed by one of the experts who had testified on behalf of a a plaintiff in a then pending lawsuit against Audi's parent company.[26]
Audi contended, prior to findings by outside investigators,[21] that the problems were caused by driver error, specifically pedal misapplication.[21] Subsequently, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) concluded that the majority of unintended acceleration cases, including all the ones that prompted the 60 Minutes report, were caused by driver error such as confusion of pedals.[27] CBS did not acknowledge the test results of involved government agencies, but did acknowledge the similar results of another study.[28]
With the series of recall campaigns, Audi made several modifications; the first adjusted the distance between the brake and accelerator pedal on automatic-transmission models.[20] Later repairs, of 250,000 cars dating back to 1978, added a device requiring the driver to press the brake pedal before shifting out of park.[20] As a byproduct of sudden unintended acceleration, vehicles now include gear stick patterns and brake interlock mechanisms to prevent inadvertent gear selection.
Audi’s U.S. sales, which had reached 74,061 in 1985, dropped to 12,283 in 1991 and remained level for three years.[20] — with resale values falling dramatically.[29] Audi subsequently offered increased warranty protection [29] and renamed the affected models — with the 5000 becoming the 100 and 200 in 1989[21]. The company only reached the same level of U.S. sales again by model year 2000.[20]
As of early 2010, a class-action lawsuit filed in 1987 by about 7,500 Audi Audi 5000-model owners remains unsettled and is currently contested in county court in Chicago after appeals at the Illinois state and U.S. federal levels.[20] The plaintiffs in this lawsuit charge that on account of the sudden acceleration controversy, Audis had lost resale value.[23]
The lawsuits surrounding the reported sudden acceleration episodes were a subject of Peter W. Huber's 1993 book, Galileo's Revenge: Junk Science In The Courtroom.[26]

[VJ]

I agree... hitting the brakes hard and/or putting it into neutral should allow one to stop the car. Even if it kills the engine due to over-revving, and destroys the brakes in the process.

The powersteering is another issue though: if you switch of the car, steering becomes much more difficult and is harder than on cars without power steering: you have the added resistance of the power steering motor. A friend of mine, his car lost all electronics while driving, and he said steering becomes VERY hard. So switching of the engine may work, but be prepared for a more difficult steering exercise.

edit: I find it odd that all the stories of runaway Toyota seem to come from the US... It could have to do with different suppliers used for the US market, but still...

[Dr Mordrid]

It's obvious that the brakes aren't up to the task of hauling down a runaway, that much is pretty clear. The question returns to the throttle system which IMO sounds like it has two problems; mechanical and electrical.

Most of those pedals are getting mechanically stuck, period. Problem is that a lot of cars who have had the recall parts installed are still doing it, meaning something else is in play. Floor mat excluded (a lot of folks are removing them or tying them to the seat platform to keep them from the pedal) then it's either a linkage or electrical problem.

Electrical failures of this type are not unknown; the Audi 5000 is a prime example. Damned near ruined the Audi brand in the US for 25 years. Other makes have had similar problems with electronic throttle controls; all the majors at some point. They were fixed, not dismissed. Basically we're looking at the electronic equivalent of the throttle return spring breaking or falling off in a mechanical linkage.

There have been too many cases to lay it off to high heels, especially with non-transvestite male drivers reporting it, and stupidity. Not to mention the off duty cop who was killed with his whole family when their car took off.

One problem Toyota has in this affair is their steadfast refusal over the years to release their black box reader software, not even to NHTSA or other regulators or even in some cases the courts. It smacks of them hiding something. This is going to cause them a huge problem as this progresses.