Runaway Prius in California....

[Dr Mordrid]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/08/eveningnews/main6279727.shtml

Out-of-Control Prius Stopped by Patrol Car

Frantic Driver Calls 911 When Accelerator Sticks; California Highway Patrol Put Car in Front of Prius to Slow it Down

CBS) On the very day Toyota was making a high-profile defense of its cars, one of them was speeding out of control.

It was a pretty frightening Monday afternoon for a driver in San Diego. The California Highway Patrol said the driver of a Toyota Prius called 911 around 1:30 p.m. to say the car's accelerator was stuck and he couldn't slow it down.

The caller was driving eastbound on Interstate 8 near San Diego as this was happening, reports CBS News correspondent Ben Tracy. At one point the car was traveling at 90 mph.

The Highway Patrol responded. To get the runaway car to stop, they actually had to put their patrol car in front of the Prius and step on the brakes. The car eventually stopped near La Posta Bridge, but the whole even lasted for about 20 minutes.

California Highway Patrol is planning a news conference to provide more details.

And the family of a police officer killed in a runaway Toyota case files suit...

http://www.justicenewsflash.com/2010/03/08/family-chp-officer-killed-sudden-acceleration-crash-files-lawsuit_201003083571.html

Family of CHP officer killed in sudden acceleration crash files lawsuit

Legal news for California product liability attorneys. Toyota faces lawsuit for the deaths of four people killed in violent wreck.

Product liability alert- Family of California Highway Patrol officer that died in a sudden acceleration crash filed a lawsuit against Toyota Motor Corporation.

San Diego, CA—The family of the California Highway Patrol officer, who was involved in the violent and fatal accident that sparked Toyota’s massive recalls for sudden acceleration issues, has filed a lawsuit. The suit, which was filed on Tuesday, March 2, 2010 in the San Diego Superior Court, names Toyota Motor Corporation, Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., and the car dealership, as reported by SignOnSanDiego.com.
>

[cjolley]

The thing I don't understand about these cases is that no passenger car on Earth is powerful enough to overcome it's brakes.
A sudden acceleration that leads to a sudden accident, that I can understand.
But a Prius overwhelming 4 wheel disk brakes for a long drive down the highway?
That just doesn't make sense to me.
The thing only makes 140hp with the battery fully charged.

And why would they drive 20 minutes without putting it in to neutral?

[Tjalfe]

And why would they drive 20 minutes without putting it in to neutral?

I was wondering that too

[Dr Mordrid]

Breaks suffering a heavy load like that massively overheat and fade, making them useless and at times even causing a fire as the flex lines overheat, soften, overpressure and burst, or a caliper seal can fail, spraying the by now red hot brake disc with flammable oil. Not good. Below is a pic of a disc under a heavy load on a production vehicle;



Any questions?

Most of the experts that have weighed in on this problem advise against turning the vehicle off. Turn off a car with electric assisted steering, as most of the affected cars have - Toyota and GM who uses Toyota sourced electric steering parts in their compact cars, and you have greatly increased steering effort and little control, especially if you aren't that strong or female.

One could presume that such steering could benefit from a backup power supply like a battery, but those things draw about 1,000 watts peak. Do the math.

Neutral also presents problems in some cars due to the danger of over-revving and a possible catastrophic engine blow. Ever see a cylinder head do a traumatic amputation of a cars hood? I have. Some cars have rev limiters in their computers to prevent this, but dunno about Toyota's compacts being reliable - there are reports of them failing in these incidents.

[paulw]

Neutral also presents problems in some cars due to the danger of over-revving and a possible catastrophic engine blow. Ever see a cylinder head do a traumatic amputation of a cars hood? I have. Some cars have rev limiters in their computers to prevent this, but dunno about Toyota's compacts being reliable - there are reports of them failing in these incidents.

A blown engine is way more preferable to getting killed or the like..

[jms]

So the new term is Toyota chasers?

Sorry doc, I love your patriotism, but I'd take a Japanese or European car over an American any day of the week.

[Brian Ellis]

I agree that there are many ways of slowing a runaway vehicle, some of them already mentioned. I agree also that a blown engine (which would be replaced free of charge under the circumstances) is preferable to exchanging a steel box for a smaller wooden one.

In most cases. the drivers panic rather than think rationally. In the case I had a runaway Ford hire car, I was under control again in less than a second.

The case of the Highway Patrol officer shows he was totally unfit for his job' he is trained to think rationally in emergencies. That case should be thrown out of court.

Another useful tip is to head for steel safety barriers (where available) at as acute an angle as possible, and slide along them. That will stop any car in less than 100 m or so, with a beautiful display of sparks. I saw this happen on the "toboggan". a 5 km long 1 in 15 slope on a Swiss motorway, with a 28 tonne truck and trailer, whose brakes failed. OK, it took him more than 100 m, but he prevented what could have been a very serious accident.

[Elie]

So this happened to me a couple of time with my Acura Integra. I bought a couple of after market mats for winter and everything was great until a hit the gas pedal a bit hard, it got stuck under the mat and I was accelerating like crazy, I only drive standard, so I hit the clutch, the engine was revving like crazy, moved the mat away from the pedal and all was good. After the second time, I threw the mat away.

Moral of the story is....if you are accelerating like crazy, you have multiple options... Either you put the car in neutral or turn the engine off.
Keep in mind though, that even though you see people on the road driving, doesn't mean they are remotely qualified to do so.

Elie

[cjolley]

Breaks suffering a heavy load like that massively overheat and fade, making them useless and at times even causing a fire as the flex lines overheat, soften, overpressure and burst, or a caliper seal can fail, spraying the by now red hot brake disc with flammable oil.

That's just inflammatory arm-waving.
My whole point is that an out of control engine on a two wheel drive Prius is not a "heavy load" to a set of modern 4 wheel disk breaks.
A Prius can't accelerate at anything like the rate it can decelerate.

[MultimediaMan]

Occasionally I had to deal with this problem when driving a 1982 Diesel Volkswagen Rabbit Pickup - it would only happen at freeway speeds, however. These little beasties occasionally liked to "runaway" if the fuel pump wasn't perfectly in time. The "solution" was simply to turn off the key to cut the fuel flow. High Mileage engines had a reputation for doing this. Fortunately, since it was a stick shift and didn't have power steering (IIRC), it was very easy to keep this problem under control.

Cool little truck... 45MPG. A tank of gas lasted us nearly a month when doing service calls.

[Wulfman]

Breaks suffering a heavy load like that massively overheat and fade, making them useless (...)
Most of the experts that have weighed in on this problem advise against turning the vehicle off. Turn off a car with electric assisted steering, as most of the affected cars have - Toyota and GM who uses Toyota sourced electric steering parts in their compact cars, and you have greatly increased steering effort and little control, especially if you aren't that strong or female.

I can't believe that the brakes would fail from something like this. it takes a fairly demanding road downhill to kill a set of breaks (and for some reason that is something everyone here is actually taught ).

and the other point: for how long again have been females driving cars, even without assisted steering? as long as they just turn the key and keep it in, and avoid triggering the steering lock (now that would suck) you should be fine. after all, that stuff has been happening on the highway - if someone manages to survive driving there at uncontrollably high speed for 20 minutes, they should be able to switch of the engine and stop within less than 10 seconds, no?

mfg
wulfman

[TransformX]

Hit the breaks, and I mean hit them hard, then turn off the ignition. Voila.

[Dr Mordrid]

In the old days of no power steering the steering boxes gear ratio was far higher to reduce the effort, so even women could drive a pickup - my mom was quite good with dads old Ford F-1 (yes, F-1 - a 1952 flathead v-8). Some boxes had up to a 30:1 ratio, though something like a mid-60's Mustang might be 16:1.

No rack & pinion then; recirculating ball or worm/sector gears. You might have to spin the wheel a few times to get the lock power steering gives in <1 turn, and no variable ratios either.

Because of this common ratio difference vehicles with power steering are often far 'stiffer' to steer in PS failure mode than cars designed to be without it.

I've seen modern car brakes destroy their linings in a high speed overheat - the adhesive bonding the pad to its plate can let go or the friction pads binding agent can fail and it crumbles. I was in one that did it - a Maxima. Not to mention seals/hoses failing when the disc goes red hot, sometimes causing a fire. Seen that too, but not from the inside.

BTW: reports here say the affected Toyota's often have pads that are burned o a crumbling crisp, so those discs are very likely getting red hot.

That's why one of the first things a rodder or racer does is upgrade the braking system. Large, thick ventilated $$-alloy discs with ceramic or some other high-temp pad and very $$ alloy calipers.

[KRSESQ]

Brake fade from overheating is real, and can be serious. Had it happen to me. Got stuck in heavy traffic leaving Minneapolis once. Within about 15 minutes my brakes were smoking and I could tell they weren't doing anything anymore. Had to pull off the next exit and coast to a stop and park for an hour to let them cool down. Checked it out when I got home and the brakelines had visible charring from the heat.

Kevin

[Wulfman]

Brake fade from overheating is real, and can be serious. Had it happen to me. Got stuck in heavy traffic leaving Minneapolis once. Within about 15 minutes my brakes were smoking and I could tell they weren't doing anything anymore.

what exactly does heavy traffic do to the brakes to cause that much overheating? I know it is serious, and in the mountains there are a few tourists every year having problems (that's what run-out ramps are for ) - but heavy traffic? how?

mfg
wulfman