Runaway Prius in California....

[Sasq]

It happens from the constant accelerate/decelerate cycle on the highways, merging traffic, rubbernecking et al. its not as odd as it sounds

[Dr Mordrid]

In stop & go driving you're often constantly riding the brake to match the traffics speed, especially if idle creep is still too fast. That friction causes heat to build up and it is radiated slowly because of the mass of the the metal parts, eventually causing an overeat condition. Pads burn, the discs get hotter than hell, caliper seals can soften, fluid can boil and/or leak via the seals, the flex hoses can cook etc. etc.

Literally brutal. for "standard" brakes and street racing brakes for, say - a Matrix, that work fine hot could run $2k or more per axel. The caliper would have 6 pistons vs 1 or 2, be forged alloy vs cast iron and the rotors huge and highly ventilated. Pads cost a lot vs $30 for street pads. No normal carmaker will be making those standard anytime soon.

Standard brakes



High capacity brakes

[Wulfman]

right, I forgot - automatic... not as much of a problem with manuals, unless you go downhill a long way without knowing about engine braking.

mfg
wulfman

[Dr Mordrid]

Yup, but with stick you can just as easily wear out the clutch.

[Dr Mordrid]

Link....

Another Prius speeds out of control, N.Y. police say

PURCHASE — A woman smashed into a stone wall this morning because of a stuck accelerator on a Toyota Prius, Harrison police said.

The 56-year-old driver suffered non-life threatening injuries, acting Chief Anthony Marraccini said.

The woman was pulling out of the driveway at 3700 Purchase St. facing forward when the accelerator stuck, police said.

The car "shot" across the street smashing into a stone wall, Marraccini said.

The collision sent "some pretty big boulders" fairly far, Marraccini said.

Marraccini said the floor mat has been pretty much ruled out as a cause. The 2005 car appears to have had corrective action taken, Marraccini said. The floor mat was tied to the seat base with plastic ties.

The car has been taken to police headquarters for further analysis.

The driver was being evaluated at White Plains Hospital Center.

[MultimediaMan]

Judging from the frequency (or at least the reporting of the incidents), it seems as if there is a physical wear/ electricial breakdown issue here. Most of the cars having the problem are older models with a higher mileage.

[Sasq]

I am also sensing a certain level of "oh its a toyota - must be their fault"
at least on this latest one, there just isn't enough info yet on that accident.
Toyota - probably, still not ruling out slip off of a high heel etc...

[Dr Mordrid]

Too many cases to lay it off to the usual suspects, especially those cases where the floor mat has been taken out or restrained in a rearward position (some are taking to tying it to the seat platform with plastic ties) and the pedal not involved. Then there is the California case from earlier in the week; the 911 tape indicates that someone in the car tried to reach down and pull the pedal back up but couldn't - it was totally frozen in place.

Then there are the cases where the car took off without the pedal being stuck. Those point to an electrical issue, and at least one auto tech professor has duplicated it by simulating a short circuit due to corrosion/deterioration at a connector. Even duplicates the cars 'black box' not throwing an error code, which has been noted previously.

[Sasq]

Don't get me wrong here doc, i think something is damn well wrong.
But it seems like half the damn cars i see on the road here are Pirus, and we are not getting the same issues here, it may be environmental or soemthing, but there is more then just toyota's screw up to it.

even more so, seeing as its so popular right now, at this stage I am not putting it past people who want an new car to take advantage of the situation.

Really I don't know what caused the latest issue with lady crashing into wall, but until there are more forensics on this, its equal 50/50 on toyota/old girl didn't like car, cash in. regardless of what the media is reporting - cause you know, media never spins a story to suit themselves and ratings at all

*edit - I just want to see this on a case by case basis, me, I drive a mazda so no pride there, just irks me when media jumps on the closest cashcow without actually investigative reporting.

[cjolley]

I still think there is something seriously wrong with the idea that the breaks can't stop a Prius, no matter what the engine is doing.

Unless there is some system that could rev the engine and disable the breaks at the same time somehow.
Stability control maybe? But do older Prius' have that?

[Dr Mordrid]

It's obvious that the brakes aren't up to the task of hauling down a runaway, that much is pretty clear. The question returns to the throttle system which IMO sounds like it has two problems; mechanical and electrical.

Most of those pedals are getting mechanically stuck, period. Problem is that a lot of cars who have had the recall parts installed are still doing it, meaning something else is in play. Floor mat excluded (a lot of folks are removing them or tying them to the seat platform to keep them from the pedal) then it's either a linkage or electrical problem.

Electrical failures of this type are not unknown; the Audi 5000 is a prime example. Damned near ruined the Audi brand in the US for 25 years. Other makes have had similar problems with electronic throttle controls; all the majors at some point. They were fixed, not dismissed. Basically we're looking at the electronic equivalent of the throttle return spring breaking or falling off in a mechanical linkage.

There have been too many cases to lay it off to high heels, especially with non-transvestite male drivers reporting it, and stupidity. Not to mention the off duty cop who was killed with his whole family when their car took off.

One problem Toyota has in this affair is their steadfast refusal over the years to release their black box reader software, not even to NHTSA or other regulators or even in some cases the courts. It smacks of them hiding something. This is going to cause them a huge problem as this progresses.

[VJ]

I agree... hitting the brakes hard and/or putting it into neutral should allow one to stop the car. Even if it kills the engine due to over-revving, and destroys the brakes in the process.

The powersteering is another issue though: if you switch of the car, steering becomes much more difficult and is harder than on cars without power steering: you have the added resistance of the power steering motor. A friend of mine, his car lost all electronics while driving, and he said steering becomes VERY hard. So switching of the engine may work, but be prepared for a more difficult steering exercise.

edit: I find it odd that all the stories of runaway Toyota seem to come from the US... It could have to do with different suppliers used for the US market, but still...

[cjolley]

NEVER, EVER TURN OFF THE ENGINE WHILE DRIVING.
It's too easy to engage the steering wheel lock.



@Doc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration

Audi 5000
During model years 1982-1987, Audi issued a series of recalls of Audi 5000 models[20] associated with reported incidents of sudden unintended acceleration linked to six deaths and 700 accidents.[20] At the time, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration ( NHTSA) was investigating 50 car models from 20 manufacturers for sudden surges of power.[21]
60 Minutes aired a report titled Out of Control on November 23, 1986,[22] featuring interviews with six people who had sued Audi after reporting unintended acceleration, including footage of an Audi 5000 ostensibly displaying a surge of acceleration while the brake pedal was depressed.[23][24][25] Subsequent investigation revealed that 60 Minutes had not disclosed they had engineered the vehicle's behavior — fitting a canister of compressed air on the passenger-side floor, linked via a hose to a hole drilled into the transmission[22][23] — the arrangement executed by one of the experts who had testified on behalf of a a plaintiff in a then pending lawsuit against Audi's parent company.[26]
Audi contended, prior to findings by outside investigators,[21] that the problems were caused by driver error, specifically pedal misapplication.[21] Subsequently, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) concluded that the majority of unintended acceleration cases, including all the ones that prompted the 60 Minutes report, were caused by driver error such as confusion of pedals.[27] CBS did not acknowledge the test results of involved government agencies, but did acknowledge the similar results of another study.[28]
With the series of recall campaigns, Audi made several modifications; the first adjusted the distance between the brake and accelerator pedal on automatic-transmission models.[20] Later repairs, of 250,000 cars dating back to 1978, added a device requiring the driver to press the brake pedal before shifting out of park.[20] As a byproduct of sudden unintended acceleration, vehicles now include gear stick patterns and brake interlock mechanisms to prevent inadvertent gear selection.
Audi’s U.S. sales, which had reached 74,061 in 1985, dropped to 12,283 in 1991 and remained level for three years.[20] — with resale values falling dramatically.[29] Audi subsequently offered increased warranty protection [29] and renamed the affected models — with the 5000 becoming the 100 and 200 in 1989[21]. The company only reached the same level of U.S. sales again by model year 2000.[20]
As of early 2010, a class-action lawsuit filed in 1987 by about 7,500 Audi Audi 5000-model owners remains unsettled and is currently contested in county court in Chicago after appeals at the Illinois state and U.S. federal levels.[20] The plaintiffs in this lawsuit charge that on account of the sudden acceleration controversy, Audis had lost resale value.[23]
The lawsuits surrounding the reported sudden acceleration episodes were a subject of Peter W. Huber's 1993 book, Galileo's Revenge: Junk Science In The Courtroom.[26]

[VJ]

NEVER, EVER TURN OFF THE ENGINE WHILE DRIVING.
It's too easy to engage the steering wheel lock.

True... But you can turn off the car first, then turn the key back to second or even third position (thus not starting the car, but only activation electronics; steering lock in my car will only enable in the last position). Either way, even this would be my very last resort (and I'm sure the aforementioned options would work).

edit: I think that in my car (VW), the steering lock does not engage when there is a key in the ignition, but I should check this.

[KRSESQ]

It seems to me that the logical solution is an emergency kill-switch which would cut power to the ignition system without affecting the electric-assist steering or brakes.

Kevin