Polish President Lech Kaczynski dead in air crash

[Brian Ellis]

If you don't recognise the name, you may remember his identical twin brother Jaroslav was Poland's PM, while Lech was President. Their small round stature gave them the nicknames Tweedledum and Tweedledee,

This may upset Polish politics as the brothers were both off-centre enough to act as a balancing power, especially as I understand that there were other high rankers on the plane.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612825.stm

[VJ]

His brother was no longer PM after the last elections.

I haven't been outside yet (presidential palace is some 800m from where I live), but I wonder what the atmosphere will be like. I understand other officials at Katyn are returning/have returned with haste to arrange matters. They were flying to Katyn to commemorate the killing of thousands of Poles, so as it is it is already a dark day in Polish history.

Jörg

[Helevitia]

Wow, very tragic especially among the circumstances. My deepest condolences to the Polish people

[Dr Mordrid]

Very, very sad - and avoidable. The aviation sites are reporting heavy fog and the crew tried 4 landing attempts, the last resulting in the crash. The avoidable part was that the pilot was offered an alternate landing site but refused it.

Condolences to all.

Side note: Anna Walentynowicz was also on board. Her firing from the Lenin Shipyards in Gdansk was one of the incidents that eventually led to the formation of Solidarity.

[VJ]

I can tell that the Poles are very moved by this.
Many people brought (and are still bringing) flowers to the presidential palace and are lighting candles. But really many people: it is compared to when the Polish pope John Paul II died. The streets leading to the presidential palace have been closed off to allow room for the crowds. Police is more visibily present, ambulances are on standby, and already preparations are being made for services (big TV screens are being set up on squares, ...). The area in front of the presidential palace is covered with flowers and candles, the parking spaces closed to it are filled with satellite communication trucks, and there are flags with black ribbons everywhere on the façades.

[Dr Mordrid]

Sounds like the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination here. I was 14 at the time and it was moving in the extreme.

[UtwigMU]

Truly sad, just last week I was talking about Katyn with some Polish friend I met on Russian course here.

[cjolley]

Sounds like the aftermath of the Kennedy assassination here. I was 14 at the time and it was moving in the extreme.

We lived in Fairfax VA at the time, near DC.
I was 11.
Was one of the masses along the procession.
It really was moving.

Four attempts!?
Guess the pilot intended to land or die trying

[VJ]

Some Poles I spoke to are actually a bit surprised by the turnout of people. The two brothers were liked by many, but were not without controversy (due to some right wing opinions). But they suspect the event spawned a feeling of nationalism and pride, enforced by the location where it happened (near Katyn).

I tried to go over to the palace to take some pictures, but there were way too many people to get a clear view. The flowers and candles are now also placed in front of the neighbouring buildings due to lack of space in front of the presidential palace. I have the impression people are allowed in the palace to pay respects, and there are masses of people lining up and gathering on many squares.

Four attempts!?
Guess the pilot intended to land or die trying

Yes, all things indicate at a serious pilot error... (of course, we don't know if he was instructed to keep trying...)

I'm annoyed by so many news sites that started listing comments on the plane, ranging from the fact that it was over 20 years old, Russian manufacturing and had its fair share of accidents.
Why do people still tend to blame Russian engineering? When you check out the accident list, virtually all of them are not related to the plane or its design: 6 or so were shot down by missiles, some had mid air collisions, one ran out of fuel because the airline was almost bankrupt and didn't want to buy at a more expensive airport, ... Removing all those accidents, and statistically it does not do worse than others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-154#Incidents_and_accidents

[MultimediaMan]

We're not knocking Russian Engineering (which tends to be the most innovative all around), we always suspect Russian Craftsmanship (which tends to be rushed and is often incomplete). The TU-154 has a very good mechanical flight record, especially when considering the primitive airfields it routinely operates from.

However, there seems to be consensus that a serious pilot error was made, which renders the airplane and it's construction moot.

I'm still wondering why the pilot chose four landing attempts. My best guess, figuring that the range of the aircraft, the average fuel load for the trip, is that the plane was low on fuel, and the pilot may not have wanted to divert for those fuel concerns. The Tupolevs don't have very good fuel efficiency, even in their best-engined, late airframed versions (TU-154M).

[Evildead666]

...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev..._and_accidents

Spent over 4 hours yesterday going thru all the wikepedia entries for the Tupolevs, Sukhoi's, MiG's , B-36's, 52's......Lots of interesting stuff there. and piccies.

From what i read it was all down to pilot error.
Clipped the tree line on the last landing run.....

[Dr Mordrid]

TU-154 has an "average" record under very heavy use with lots of its 66 major incidents being human, runway or cargo related and one missile shoot-down. This definitely looks like a CFIT (controlled flight into terrain)

[VJ]

On Sunday, the president's body was returned to the palace, and huge crowds gathered along the entire route; they started clapping when the hearse drove by. All the while, people are still bringing flowers and candles to the palace, but you can see many candles and flowers at basically any monument in the city (it is nearly impossible to reach the palace).

Today (Monday) is really weird day here in Warsaw... People are going to work, but it feels so very different to other days: people are just sitting there, staring in front of them. Everybody is silent, nobody is reading books or magazines (which they usually do), not even walkmans are played. Just one traveller was reading a newspaper with a full black cover. It is a very eery feeling to experience in a city that otherwise feels so vibrant. It is obvious that this has touched them very deeply. :-(

People will be able to pay their last respects from Tuesday on, and I expect there to be many, many people.

Jörg