14 years for trafficking in cannabis

[Brian Ellis]

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/man-jailed-14-years-charcoal-cannabis-case/20100724

This kind of punishment is a strong deterrent, compared with the "rap across the knuckles" in many countries.

[Dr Mordrid]

200 kilos of weed? 14 years?

US Federal sentencing guidelines for 100-999 kilos, and there is no parole in the Federal system

1st offense: 5-40 years plus a $2 million fine (up to the judge - if a lot and/or you have a record, bye-bye)

2nd offense: 10-life plus a $4 million fine

unless a serious injury or death occurred (doesn't matter how, perhaps during a pursuit) - THEN

1st offense: 20-life

2nd offense: mandatory life

>1000 kilos: basically double everything, including the fines

[Technoid]

Sadly there seems to be no correlation between the punishment and the deterance....

[Umfriend]

Ridiculous and harmful.

@Doc, how many US-citizens are currently in jail for drug & drug related crime?

[Brian Ellis]

Sadly there seems to be no correlation between the punishment and the deterance....

Can't say I agree: traditionally drug offences here, even possession of tiny amounts of hash for personal use, have been heavily sanctioned. Comparatively to mainland Europe, drugs are not a great problem, except in the tourist resorts frequented by youngsters, mainly from the UK, who bring their own supply of the poison of their choice. If caught, their holiday lasts 3-6 months longer than they anticipate and not in a four-star hotel. They don't come back! Very few local kids try it, but that does not stop dealers trying ... and spending 14 years out of circulation!

[Dr Mordrid]

Ridiculous and harmful.

@Doc, how many US-citizens are currently in jail for drug & drug related crime?

According to the US Dept. of Justice in 2008, the latest records available, there were 7,308,200 persons in the US corrections system.

4,270,917 were on probation, 828,169 were on parole, 785,556 were in jails (usually county facilities that also hold community prisoners), and 1,518,559 were in state and federal prisons. Of these about 23% are for drug crimes.

My guess is if you add in drug related it's closer to 40%, but these are not necessarily harmless users committing thefts for the purpose of procurement. A LOT of folks on drugs like meth, cocaine, PCP and its ilk (often used to 'enhance' weed) etc. often get just flat dangerous/homicidal.

You wouldn't believe it unless you've seen it, and even then the first instinct is denial. I've seen these folks break their own bones straining against restraints - and they get put in those so they don't injure or kill the staff or other patients (seen both happen).

Also consider that the weed sold here is far from what was around in our youth - it's 10x, or more, stronger due to hybridization etc. and, as noted, often 'cut' with said much stronger drugs for street marketing purposes. Legalization won't decrease the market for enhanced weed, not one bit, because the dealers will always undercut the price of, and exceed the performance of, the legal product.

These folks keep the trauma centers busy as hell either treating them directly or those they have injured by direct action or the accidents they cause. Been there as an eye-witness. This is one aspect of the US drug problem I doubt many legalization proponents are aware of, and those who are apparently don't care. Ever see a 10-12 year old in seizures because his first joint was spiked? I have. Several times.

Ugly, very ugly.

It's also time to realize/admit that Mexico's in the early stages of a Columbia-style drug-fueled civil war and it's time to (finally!) fortify our border before it spills over worse than it has. And NO, legalizing them here won't insulate us from it. That'll just create a bigger market for them to fight over.

[Umfriend]

As in, when the prohibition was lifted, illegal pushing of alcohol proved to be a sustainable business model for criminals as well?

[Brian Ellis]

As in, when the prohibition was lifted, illegal pushing of alcohol proved to be a sustainable business model for criminals as well?

Still is (pun intended) http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/

[Umfriend]

LOL. But seriously?

[Brian Ellis]

This is not a joke. Illegal alcohol distillation is rife in many countries, including Europe. See http://homedistiller.org/

In this country, zivania (like marc or grappa) was made legal only a few years ago, but it was produced illegally from British colonial days until recently by the thousands of litres. It was cheaper than spirits for burning! Now, it is produced legally by the wineries.

I have drunk illegal absinthe in Switzerland. It, too, was moonshined in the canton of Neuchâtel by the thousands of litres.

Moonshined alcohol is a problem in many countries.

[KRSESQ]

@ Brian:

It's amusing that you decry illegal spirit production by linking to a site on illegal spirit production! Particularly a site that provides significant information on toxicity avoidance.

This info seems aimed mainly at intrepid hobbyists.

(Thanks for the link BTW. )

Otherwise home brewing and home wine-making is a perfectly legal and largely safe process in the US. My brother-in-law Richard once ran some of my father-in-law's homemade wine through distillation. I was willing to have some because Rich was a chemist and knew what he was doing. It was like drinking battery acid. I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to get some unless it was the only alcohol available. And even then...

I highly doubt that the production of illegal spirits is cutting into the market for legal spirits in any significant way. I'm willing to go out on a limb and suggest that in the States it's only a serious problem in so-called "dry" regions. The number of illegal "moonshine" stills busted here in North Dakota within the last 50 years or so could probably be counted on one hand.

@ Doc:

It may be true that pot is 10x stronger now than it was 30 years ago, but so what? Wine is 4-5x stronger than beer. Whisky is 4-5x stronger than wine, and many other spirits even more potent (Everclear is almost pure ethanol). What does that mean to you or me? It means it takes far less fine Kentucky bourbon to achieve a pleasing buzz than it does cheap beer.

As you pointed out, it's the illegal market, absent ANY safety standards AT ALL, that drives adulteration of the product to increase profit. It's EXACTLY the same problem that plagued the prohibition era.

Kevin

[Dr Mordrid]

Those alcohol content ratios are way off, especially with new beer varieties (malt and iced beers) that are as strong as wines, and stronger wines, becoming popular. The 'old' numbers just don't work any more.

Why does stronger pot matter? Because of its now proven neurodegenerative effects. Studies here, overseas, major medical centers etc etc. Yes, it can be a great pain and nausea treatment - but what current strengths also mean is that the 'stoner effect' occurs not only with chronic use by the old standard but with 10x or less casual use of the current strains.

Also a problem is that the THC in cannibis is fat soluble, being retained in the lung, testes, liver, fat and nervous system tissues - a gift that keeps giving. In contrast alcohol is water soluble and rapidly eliminated.

[Brian Ellis]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-10770370

Poisonous moonshine has killed at least 17 people and blinded a dozen more in Kenya's largest slum.

Police said the home-distilled drink may have contained traces of methanol.
...

Alcohol-related deaths are common in Kenya, with hundreds of people dying every year from poisoned liquor often sold in the brewer's home.

[Dr Mordrid]

Precisely Brian, not to mention lead contamination if the still and mash pot were assembled using lead vs. silver solder.

[KRSESQ]

Doc, I get the impression that you think that alcohol is somehow "less harmful" than pot. As the son of an emotionally abusive alcoholic father, as someone who watched his best friend (the best man at my wedding) destroy himself with alcohol, I can assure you on no uncertain terms that this is demonstrably, patently, absurdly false.

Alcohol has been the scourge of civilization for as long as there has been civilization. Is there any way to calculate how many countless lives have been destroyed by alcohol? Certainly more than all of the wars and all of the ethnic cleansings and all of the inquisitions and all of the witchhunts in all of history. Yet today no rational person would suggest that alcohol should be illegal. Why? Because we learned from cruel, hard experience that prohibition DOESN'T WORK.

My own maternal grandfather spent 3 months in the county jail for the relatively minor offense of running a couple of cases of booze across the Canadian border. After all, in desperate times a man has to do what a man has to do to put bread on the table (my paternal grandfather, thank his lucky stars, never got caught). After he did his time, he was literally run out of the county. Today, under mandatory-minimum sentencing guidelines, he would be thrown into a federal penitentiary with genuinely dangerous criminals, his life and his livelihood and his family destroyed over what was ultimately a failed policy.

In what way is the war on pot any different?

And in case you're wondering, yes I do enjoy a refreshing beverage every now and then. I do it fully aware that there's a monster inside me that I have to keep caged and wrapped in heavy chains. Most of the time the monster stays caged and I'm able to enjoy myself with my friends and no harm comes of it. But once in a great while the monster escapes and runs rampant and I have to fight like the devil to get it back into its cage. Let me tell you, I'm more afraid of that monster than I am of any man.

Yet I do manage to get it back under control and I do it without the help of AA, or the church, or psychologists or anyone else. I do it with the strength given me by the memory of my friend Steve lingering for nearly a year in a nursing home, unable to recognize me or any other of his lifelong friends because of the catastrophic damage done to him by that same damned monster.

So don't sit there and try to tell me that alcohol is somehow "less harmful" than pot. Because I KNOW BETTER.

Kevin