14 years for trafficking in cannabis

[Dr Mordrid]

Doc, I get the impression that you think that alcohol is somehow "less harmful" than pot.

Only to the degree that alcohol has been shown to have beneficial effects in some demographic groups. The only beneficial effects for cannabis are as mentioned; for nausea and pain and its use for those I have no objection to. Otherwise, either is a horrid chemical when abused.

Alcohol has been the scourge of civilization for as long as there has been civilization. Is there any way to calculate how many countless lives have been destroyed by alcohol?

How about how many it's saved? Before water treatment making beer and wine served another purpose: providing water in a form that would preserve well because of the anti-microbial properties of the alcohol within. They didn't know about microbes of course, but those who drank river water got ill more often than those who drank brew and wines. Then there are the proven positive medical effects of moderate alcohol consumption. Again, abuse is a no-no, but still....

In what way is the war on pot any different?

The times and degree. First understand that as a young man my father lived in Chicago during the Caponse era, and actually did a lot of the marble work, anx maintained it, in the hotel where he lived. As such I got some great 1st hand anecdotes about those times.

During prohibition there were gang wars in the cities and maybe neighboring large towns, but now we have very dangerous gangs like MS13 etc. waging war on each other and anyone in their way in small towns and even in the countryside. These people sell all types of drugs but weed is their cash cow, especially the enhanced weed that can destroy people. These guys operate at a whole other level than Capone etc. who actually coveted a good public image. These guys don't give a rip.

So don't sit there and try to tell me that alcohol is somehow "less harmful" than pot. Because I KNOW BETTER.

Kevin

No, you don't. You're too close to a negative family tragedy to see the other side.

[KRSESQ]

The times and degree. During prohibition there were gang wars in the cities and maybe neighboring towns, but now we have very dangerous gangs like MS13 etc. waging war on each other and anyone in their way in small towns and even in the countryside. These people sell all types of drugs but weed is their cash cow, especially the enhanced weed that can destroy people. These guys operate at a whole other level than Capone etc. who actually coveted a good public image. These guys don't give a rip.

So what better way to minimize the cash flow and cripple the cartels than to place control of the production and distribution in the hands of responsible government agencies? Some of those who are currently by definition criminals would go ligit (as happened after prohibition was repealed), while others would have to make do with what remaining criminal enterprises are available to them (as also happened after the repeal of prohibition). Then of course there will be others who try to skirt the new laws and try to do business as usual. But they can be dealt with by the "revenooers" (as ALSO happened after the repeal of prohibition).

It's all a double-edged sword. On the one hand you gain a measure of social order from the minimizing (never the complete elimination) of criminal enterprises formerly dependent on the illegal trade. On the other hand you have to cope with the social problems caused by the legitimate use of the substance in question (whether alcohol, tobacco, OR pot).

As things stand right now there is NO control AT ALL.

How about how many it's saved? Before water treatment making beer and wine served another purpose: providing water in a form that would preserve well because of the anti-microbial properties of the alcohol within. They didn't know about microbes of course, but those who drank river water got ill more often than those who drank brew and wines. Then there are the proven positive medical effects of moderate alcohol consumption. Again, abuse is a no-no, but still....

Speaking of double-edged swords, how many of those "saved" spent their (typically short) lives dependent on alcohol from childhood and suffering all of the associated negative effects as a matter of necessity?

No, you don't. You're too close to a negative family tragedy to see the other side.

You're right. I'll give you that one. it IS personal to me. It's personal to me and to the hundreds of thousands of Americans who have lost loved ones to alcohol-related accidents and illnesses in the last year alone.

Don't try to minimize that or brush it aside just because you've been fortunate enough in your life to avoid such personal tragedies. Am I mistaken, or were you not once an ER physician? I'm sure you must have seen such tragedies (and many others, I'm sure) firsthand. I can tell you every single one of those tragedies was VERY personal to those affected.

And don't even get me started on tobacco.

Kevin

[Umfriend]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-10770370

LOL, really think that is an argument? That example comes from the poorest part of the world where, undoubtedly, prices of alcoholic drinks will be high compared to purchasing power as a consequence of taxes. Extremely high.

Why not abolish olive oil as well then? http://articles.latimes.com/1987-03-31/news/mn-1535_1.

Moreover, such risks are indeed present in uncontrolled production of substances to be consumed. Imagine though that due to current laws, no production (nor distribution) is controlled and carries all this risk as a result.

I love the MS13 argument. They came to wealth because of the demand for drugs and it being illicit. Would it be possible to build such a wealth and power by producing and selling, illegally, stuff like cigarettes and beer?

I don;t see why adults should not have the right to, basically, use whatever they want. I wonder where the resistance comes from. Given the time when durg-laws came into force, one could speculate that it stems from some sort of dogmatic religious-fed stance that leisure and enjoyment are somehow evil.

[Evildead666]

Strangely enough, I think the current Durg laws are a lot like Prohibition was back then.

If its illegal, it can be shipped illegally for a high price, hence High Profits.
Once Prohibition had been abolished, alcohol was no longer trafficked by the Mob.

Cigarettes are now being trafficked in Europe due to their high purchase price. Counterfeit ciggies are rife now.

Banning Durgs across the board, instead of controlling them, is what is allowing the Black Marketeers to function.
The State would control these durgs if it was in their interest, and being "for profit" organisations, they don't bother.

Take Durgs off the street, and you can't claim the streets are dangerous, we need more police.
This world is already controlled by people who fear having their budget cut, so they don't overdo it.

If a Gov't diivision doesn't spend all its allocated money, the next year they get less money.
So everyone always needs more money. always.

its called being run by Greedy Bastards, and we are all in the same mess.
$150 hammers and shit....6 people to fill in a pothole....

If the Gov't legalised it all, pending the usage of an identity card/Biometric identification, they would make money and get rid of the associated crime.

[Dr Mordrid]

Drugs won't get off the street because dealers will undercut the legal stuffs price and offer a product with a stronger 'high' - Marketing 101.

We already see this kind of undercutting in the huge market for bootlegged/smuggled cigarettes & other tobacco products. Nationally the lost tax revenues alone amount to >$5 Billion/year, so bootleggers are making some multiple of that.

Drugs will be NO different, and very probably much worse; even more turf battles, payola/bribes, protection schemes targeting retailers, etc and of course given drug dealers penchant for violence....

[Umfriend]

I'd like a source backing the notion that there is a huge market for smuggled cigarettes and counterfeit product. My guess is these markets are small compared to white-market.

Marketing 101 my ass. A few points:
- If dealers undercut legal price, they'll loose huge margins while operating at high risk. Given that volume of the business will fall as well (see next point), they'll soon find their business to be unporfitable and exit. (And I'll give most of them the credit to exit immediately or go legit).
- Have you done or are you aware of any marketing-research on drugs? My guess is that most users would prefer legal, controlled stuff even if at a somewhat higher price. If not, why aren't we all buying smuggled cigarettes and cheap moonshine?

[Brian Ellis]

I'd like a source backing the notion that there is a huge market for smuggled cigarettes and counterfeit product. My guess is these markets are small compared to white-market.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/investigations/tobacco/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7194518.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/27/smuggled-cigarettes-seized-ireland

http://www.globalink.org/en/smuggling.shtml

http://www.nation.co.ke/business/news/Smuggled%20cigarettes%20threaten%20to%20smoke%20out%20local%20manufacturers%20/-/1006/955490/-/qkcft2z/-/

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article3811559.ece

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/bulgaria-china.51e

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/business/hancock/blog/2010/01/delaware_smuggled_cigarettes_e.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarette_smuggling

http://beta.cyprus-mail.com/brian-ke...led-cigarettes (close to home)

There is enough here to substantiate that it is BIG business in many countries.

[Evildead666]

I personally wouldn't buy cheap smokes from anyone in the street, or online...

for me, DUty Free smokes bought on the ferry between UK and FR were cheap, but so was the tobacco.
The Tar content was MUCH MUCH higher than in the 'normal' ciggies, and they blew your lungs out.
Got bottles of Smirnoff Blue 50% instead from then on.

Wish I could still find Smirnoff Blue 50% though....retail is 40-45% and its not the same.

Also, Cigarettes here are 5 euros 60c for a pack of 20 Marlboro's (My Cancer of choice).
They are even more expensive in the UK, probably not far off 10Euros a pack of 20.

The higher the price of Cigarettes, the more smuggling goes on.

If Durgs as we know it are made legal to over 21's, with ID card, then why not ?

If the Drug Barons had to lower their prices, they lose money.
Losing money makes the Deal economically unviable.

Thats why most of the weed is now grown in the country of distribution, costs.

If they are going to allow Alcohol and Tobacco to keep going, there is NO reason to not let people attempt to kill themselves with other substances, if they so wish.

Make it that you can only consume on the premises of said sales building, or coffee shop, and voila.

The Disclaimer would have to be pretty big though, and people would just sign it anyway (..first born son...etc...), like a standard Microsoft EULA.

[KRSESQ]

A casual examination of your list, Brian, seems to indicate that the problem is worst in 3rd world nations and nations with ridiculously high cigarette taxes (and border areas where enforcement is lax).

I notice NO ONE is advocating banning cigarettes to try to combat this illicit trade.

Kevin

[Dr Mordrid]

Since legal sales and disparate taxation incentivize the cigarette black markets, and they're unhealthy and raise medical expenses, the case for outlawing them could be made. Same case could be made for alcohol again and others have.

My point here is that legalization of drugs isn't the panacea proponents make it out to be. Indeed, all it actually does is create a huge game of Whack-A-Mole as regards new problems that will have to be addressed, including the treatment of even more addicts as gateway drugs like weed are augmented/replaced by stronger ones.

And don't tell me weed isn't a gateway drug. 30 years in ER's and many international studies say otherwise.

[KRSESQ]

Beer is a "gateway drug" too.

Kevin

[Dr Mordrid]

Not saying it isn't for those predisposed biologically or psychologically, but it at least has beneficial effects to the general population when consumed in moderation. Weeds only beneficials are as a painkiller or for its anti-nausea effects, both of which should be regulated strongly.

[Jammrock]

They smuggle liquor in Finland, Sweden and Norway because of government restrictions to youth and high taxation on alcohol.

http://www.nileguide.com/blog/2010/04/21/modern-day-bootlegging-illegal-alcohol-trade-around-the-world/

http://ara.co.za/viewpoints/Illicit_Alcohol

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1382965.ece

[Umfriend]

@Brian: The point was (as I noted) that these markets would be small compared to the legit business and sofar I've seen nothing to the contrary. With marihuana, XTC, coke etc, everything is illegal making every single consumer a criminal and granting the dealers all economic surplus of the trade.

@Doc: I'm a protagonist of legalisation (with qualifications) but I've never called it panacea. I'm addressing issues caused by current laws and raising the question whether grown-ups shoudl or should not be allowed to mess themselves up. I have yet to see why spending billions of dollars per annum on the WoD is close to heaven (or how it will get us there).

@Jamm: smuggling to scandinavian countries and finland of cigarettes and alcohol has been going on for a long time (in fact, it is les now than it used to be) but mostly by private individuals (UK comes to mind as well BTW) and in any case a small part of total consumptions.

As a side note, I once smuggeld a small boat motor from Norway through Sweden to the Netherlands. NO clue why one would want to smuggle them in, at the time they could not be gotten cheaper than in Norway (unless these were stolen?).

[Brian Ellis]

in any case a small part of total consumptions.

>25% is hardly a small part