Tesla's $5B battery 'GigaFactory' for cars, power storage

[Dr Mordrid]

Other reports say it'll take in raw materials at one end and spit batteries out the other. Sort of like SpaceX does with rockets.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...gafactory.html

Musk’s $5 Billion Tesla Gigafactory May Start Bidding War

Tesla Motors Inc. (TSLA)’s plan to build what co-founder Elon Musk bills as the world’s largest battery factory could not only shake up the power industry but trigger a bidding contest between states eager for the 6,500 jobs the $5 billion investment could create.

The luxury electric-car maker announcedyesterday that it’s selling at least $1.6 billion of convertible notes to finance the project and exploring locations in Texas,Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico for a 10 million-square-foot facility. Tesla declined to comment on whether any negotiations had begun.

“This would rank as the most attractive industrial project out there,” said Dennis Cuneo, president of DC Strategic Advisors LLC and a former Toyota Motor Corp. executive who helped that carmaker select manufacturing sites.

Tesla has dubbed the project the “gigafactory,” and it would make Musk a force in both U.S. manufacturing and electric power. The plant he envisions would have more capacity than any other to make lithium-ion batteries.

“This has a huge impact beyond Tesla,” said Harley Shaiken, a labor economist at the University of California, Berkeley. “It gives enormous legitimacy to battery production and the future of the electric car because that lies in the battery. It’s high stakes, high technology.”

Tesla plans an investment of $4 billion to $5 billion by 2020 and will fund about $2 billion of the total, the Palo Alto, California-based company said in a statement. It said the convertible bond offering could grow to $1.84 billion.

Power Storage

Musk said in the statement that the plant is key to Tesla becoming a mass-market automaker capable of producing 500,000 or more electric vehicles a year. The company’s cheapest model, the Model S, starts at $71,000.

The 42-year-old billionaire could also get closer to achieving his goal of being a leader in the power-storage industry in the U.S., as utility customers continue to turn to batteries and solar panels to reduce electricity bills.

The scale of production at the planned factory would be so immense that Tesla estimates it would drive down lithium-ion battery costs by at least 30 percent.
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[dZeus]

Other reports say it'll take in raw materials at one end and spit batteries out the other. Sort of like SpaceX does with rockets.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...gafactory.html

Is this plant going to produce 'conventional' batteries, like currently used in Teslas, or do they intend to use some kind of new technology that they prefer to keep in-house?

btw. even with a 30% reduction of battery costs, a Tesla still is one expensive car. I fail to see how analysts can keep claiming Tesla compares to GM, with their market cap being not too far off now. One produces cars for almost all price segments using different types of technology (distributing the risk), the other uses only a single type of technology to sell cars to a relatively small market segment.

If GM decided to go all-in on battery-powered cars, they'd have an enormous advantage of scale compared to Tesla. Also, the death of petrol is over-hyped imo. Low-weight, highly aerodynamically optimized designs can push down fuel consumption by a huge margin. We already saw the possibilities during the 1970s oil-shocks.

For now Tesla to me represents an over-hyped stock of a car manufacturer for rich kids with a penchant to display their wealth using the latest popular gadget.

[Dr Mordrid]

What most of these articles have missed is that Tesla is not only working on advanced chemistry lithium ion but also an advanced metal-air battery they patented 1-2 years ago. They would be used together in a hybrid system, one delivering surge power and the other for cruising. I assume parts of this factory would be devoted to both.

One of GM's problems is horizontal integration, they depend on others for their batteries and this causes cost and supply line issues. Ex: the cells are Korean, that factory having to obtain processed raw materials. Battery assembly and control integration is done in the US.

Tesla rolling their own from raw material to integrated battery will neatly bypass that.

As to vehicle cost and product diversity, Tesla's Model X crossover comes out soon, then comes an under $30k car followed by a pickup truck.

Another oil shock.here is unlikely what with the US being the worlds #1 producer and Canada having enormous reserves. Both due to enormous oil shale reserves comng online.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N0I51IX20131015?irpc=932

[Brian Ellis]

Hope they have a good fire insurance!

[VJ]

For now Tesla to me represents an over-hyped stock of a car manufacturer for rich kids with a penchant to display their wealth using the latest popular gadget.

I think therein lies the cunningness of their approach. First make the car a hype and make it appear cool (the roadster). Then put it in a price range that gives it exclusivity, but that is probably also justified by the production/research costs. For most of their current clientele, a Tesla would not be their only car. This makes it more usable for them: town car for short runs or show off car rather than everyday workhorse. The clients feel good about themselves for having one, and at the same time they are financing the research needed to make the technology cheaper and better. To me, it is brilliant! And they seem to have pulled it off.

What most of these articles have missed is that Tesla is not only working on advanced chemistry lithium ion but also an advanced metal-air battery they patented 1-2 years ago. They would be used together in a hybrid system, one delivering surge power and the other for cruising. I assume parts of this factory would be devoted to both.

I wonder what the impact will be on the lithium prices or other rare materials that are needed... I also hope the are not only researching chemical energy storage, but e.g. also on hydrogen fuel cells or so.

[Dr Mordrid]

At the moment Musk thinks fuel cells need much more development.

Lithium use per battery is going down because of more efficient designs, but if it gpes up that just makes the southwestern US deposits more viable and drives research into alternatives (and there are some.)

Tesla is going solar with arrays from sister company Solar City powering their Supercharger stations, which are being installed in and between the cities where they have dealers. A solar array generates power and sells it to the grid. Tesla owners can then charge their cars from the grid for free, a 50% charge taking ~20-25 minutes.

[Brian Ellis]

I also hope the are not only researching chemical energy storage, but e.g. also on hydrogen fuel cells or so.

I think it was in 1999 that I attended an international conference. The keynote speaker was the (then) CEO of GM and he promised that H2 fuel cell cars would be mainstream by 2008 and anyone could go to their dealer and buy one from the showroom. As an 'anyone', I'm still waiting and I'll be waiting a long, long time yet.

Why?
FCs too expensive
H2 expensive to make
FC lifetime limited
Poor efficiency
No H2 infrastructure
Danger of H2 explosion in car, filling stations and in production and transport
No use in cold weather
Higher CO2 emissions than petrol in countries where electricity is generated mainly from coal
H2 is not a fuel: it is an energy carrier.

AFAIK, Toyota is probably the only passenger car maker still actively pursuing research into this and that is only in the context of the home market ultra-light, ultra-small Kei-car, probably with a Daihatsu chassis. Hydrogen is dead for ordinary cars.

[VJ]

FCs too expensive
H2 expensive to make
FC lifetime limited
Poor efficiency
No H2 infrastructure
Danger of H2 explosion in car, filling stations and in production and transport
No use in cold weather
Higher CO2 emissions than petrol in countries where electricity is generated mainly from coal
H2 is not a fuel: it is an energy carrier.

AFAIK, Toyota is probably the only passenger car maker still actively pursuing research into this and that is only in the context of the home market ultra-light, ultra-small Kei-car, probably with a Daihatsu chassis. Hydrogen is dead for ordinary cars.

Well, BMW has a few cars running on a H2 combustion engine, and Mazda did the same with a Wankel engine (several years ago).

Batteries are also expensive, and require rare materials... and are also lifetime limited
Enegy structure for charging many cars e.g. in parkings is also not in place (a German expert explained the issues at a conference, and it really is a big problem)
Higher CO2 emission from electricity generation is not a H2 problem (same issue for batteries)
I put H2 as energy storage :-)

The main hurdles are storage, infrastructure (people have the knowhow for an electricity infrastructure, but not so much for H2 infrastructure). I don't know how the safety of batteries compares (boeiing? tesla fires?) to hydrogen.

Still, it seems unwise to me to abandon all other options and just consider batteries. We made a similar mistake when cars first emerged: there were electrical and fuel cars, everything turned to fuel, and this is where we are now...

[Dr Mordrid]

Well, it's on.

Panasonic and Tesla will be building it near Reno, Nevada, and the university system is starting training programs for locals who will work there. 10 million square feet and several thousand jobs. They will also be reactivating lithium mines in the US west.

Tesla has announced the Model III for 2017, which is expected to come in at about $35,000, and their Supercharger network is expanding along highway routes. Supercharger is a free solar charging station for Teslas, typically at a gas station/convenience stote/road restaurant. It sells power to the grid to offset costs, then you can get a half charge (150 miles worth +/-) in 20 minutes while you eat or use the restroom. There's also talk of a backup factory.

[Jammrock]

As I recall BMW has H2 fueling stations in Germany. They are self fueling to reduce the risk of spilling liquid H2. But it has been a long time since I read that article so no idea if those are even still around.