apartment woes...

[VJ]

Well, we got back from a two weeks holliday... guess what happened in our apartment?

Exactly the day of our return, our upstairs neighbour did something (probably laundry, with the drain pipe not well positioned), which flooded our bathroom. It has happened before, we already had to have the ceiling redone, but now it was the worst of all those 7 previous times. The carpets on the floor were soaked, the leak happened to be where the toilet paper roll was standing, and it soaked it completely and even made a hole through the nearly full roll. The whole ceiling is wet and in brown spots and shows cracks, the wall to the corridor is wet about 1.2m down from the ceiling, the doorframe is showing water damage (beyond repair, so would need replacing), on the corridor side of the wall there were bubbles in the paint (but they are gone now) and discolouration due to the dirty water, and there was this distinct humidity smell. So we are looking at replacing the ceiling in the bathroom, the doorframe and repainting ceiling and wall in the corridor.

Of course, she claims it is not her fault, her son is not much help, and we are again stuck with the damage. At least this time, a plumber came and verified that nothing is wrong with the pipes, and that it is her fault. Contrary to previous times, we now will have an official report directing the blame to her. Last time, her son brushed me off, saying "you have water, but you cannot prove it is from my mother's apartment". So now we can. Our next step should be to claim that she is not capable of living by herself, and that her son is not taking care of the situation enough. No idea how that procedure goes though. We have insurance (luckily), and last time we used it, which only meant that our polis went up. Probably because the amount of damage was too small. Now however, it looks like it is going to be much more expensive, so perhaps insurance would try to claim money from the neighbour. And of course again the mess of renovations...

edit: we were so close to finishing it all... paintings from Belgium arrived here, and we were planning to hang them. We decided on a shelf to buy for the living room, and that would be it. Now it will first again be a mess... And we don't have time for such things: the deadline for my girlfriend's phd is nearing, and she should not be distracted by such things...

Jörg

[UtwigMU]

Well, at least it's mostly done and problem with neighbour might be resolved.

[Umfriend]

I will say and ask nothing.

[VJ]

Well, at least it's mostly done and problem with neighbour might be resolved.

Well, it means we will be again in renovations... 2-3 days work, 1-2 days cleaning. Good thing that I pushed my will through, and had all low voltage lights installed in the bathroom and additional electrical security devices (residual current device, not sure if mandatory here, but I have them for kitchen and bathroom). So we should be safe (before our holliday, I switched off the fuses, just to be sure anyway).

Well... my hope is that what happened this time is big enough to result into consequences for the neighbour.
There was once an attempt by the building administrator to get social services to take her (we suspect some issue with gas), but her son managed to solve that (she does not have gas anymore). Her son also managed to solve the TV noise issues (they moved the TV to the other side and put it on some carpet: now we cannot hear it in the bedroom, and barely in the living room). Just to be clear: I know she does not mean bad, she is this 85-90 year old lady living alone in an apartment. But she just is not capable of living alone. This morning, before the plumber came, she called my girlfriend's mother (she has her number), saying that there were plumbers at her place yesterday evening and in the night, to "deinstall and reinstall all the pipes". What happend was that the security guard went in to check, in the evening, and he just saw wet rags in the bathroom. She also said we called her son in the morning, which is also not true (we called him in the evening), so she clearly is having issues distinguishing times and remembering events.

A bit a shame that the building administrator does not take action, which they could considering the safety of the building. It means that we will have to manage everything, and we need to figure out who to contact, and how. So it will take a bit of work... hopefully it will pay off...

I will say and ask nothing.

I know... but I promised photos, and they will come... just not of the bathroom... and only when the frames are on the walls, it will look much nicer.

[dZeus]

Well, it means we will be again in renovations... 2-3 days work, 1-2 days cleaning. Good thing that I pushed my will through, and had all low voltage lights installed in the bathroom and additional electrical security devices (residual current device, not sure if mandatory here, but I have them for kitchen and bathroom). So we should be safe (before our holliday, I switched off the fuses, just to be sure anyway).

Well... my hope is that what happened this time is big enough to result into consequences for the neighbour.
There was once an attempt by the building administrator to get social services to take her (we suspect some issue with gas), but her son managed to solve that (she does not have gas anymore). Her son also managed to solve the TV noise issues (they moved the TV to the other side and put it on some carpet: now we cannot hear it in the bedroom, and barely in the living room). Just to be clear: I know she does not mean bad, she is this 85-90 year old lady living alone in an apartment. But she just is not capable of living alone. This morning, before the plumber came, she called my girlfriend's mother (she has her number), saying that there were plumbers at her place yesterday evening and in the night, to "deinstall and reinstall all the pipes". What happend was that the security guard went in to check, in the evening, and he just saw wet rags in the bathroom. She also said we called her son in the morning, which is also not true (we called him in the evening), so she clearly is having issues distinguishing times and remembering events.

A bit a shame that the building administrator does not take action, which they could considering the safety of the building. It means that we will have to manage everything, and we need to figure out who to contact, and how. So it will take a bit of work... hopefully it will pay off...


I know... but I promised photos, and they will come... just not of the bathroom... and only when the frames are on the walls, it will look much nicer.

Sorry to hear about your ongoing troubles with the neighbour. Have you tried suggesting to use a headphones if she want sto watch tele late at night ?

[Greebe]

Green glue and another layer of sheet rock applied would insulate her tv noise. Not cheap but effective.

Hope things work out for all concerned

[VJ]

The noise problem was solved some time ago. More people were complaining about that, and the building administrator took care of it. Her television was moved to a different side of the room, and put on something that isolates noise a bit (carpet or so). So while we still hear it occassionally, it is no longer a problem for us.

The big issue is the water. 7 floodings, already 1 fixing/painting of the ceiling, and now bigger works will be necessary. And we don't know the state of the walls behind the tiles (allthough I would guess that not to be dramatic, we need to let them dry first). We yesterday contacted the building administrator and the insurance company to ask for advice. My girlfriend also called her son (we learned that he blocked my number), to inform him about it. He clearly is playing hardball: he claims not to know if she has insurance, and he says that she claims the plumber said it are our pipes that are causing the problem, but that we won't let the plumber in. His tone changed a bit when my girlfriend told him the plumber wrote an official report, that it says something quite different and that he should contact the administrator to know the contents. Still from his replies to the latest 3 floodings, we have the feeling he will for sure not be helpful in this, trying to make it as difficult as he can.

The building administrator told us to have a lawyer send a registered letter. Problem we see with this is that we can only send it to our neighbour's address (we don't have the son's address). And while she is old, she is not stupid and we are not sure the letter will ever reach her son. She also keeps denying that she has anything to do with it (claiming at one time it is caused by our pipes, on other times by our shower or even by our toilet), so I'm not sure what sending a letter from a lawyer would accomplish.

The insurance company says that they can claim damages from a guilty party. They actually asked us why we did not chose that option before, but then we did not have adequate proof (now we have). On one hand, it feels like a mean thing to do, but I have always been nice to the son, while gets more and more offensive and less and less helpful. I don't want to have the fear of returning to flooded apartment, day after day. Now it is a ceiling, a wall and a doorframe, but what will it be next? Short circuit? Parquet floors? Damaged wall behind the tiles? I have been nice 7 times, but to no avail...

I was thinking of calling the local police (this office that deals with small matters), to ask them for advice, but not sure of that.

Of course, we can claim it the normal way via our insurance, but then there is no guarantee that they will even contact the neighbour, so there is no reason for this to end.

What would you guys do?

[UtwigMU]

You cannot blame neighbour for flooding entirely since if building was built properly, this shouldn't have happened.

Thus it's aged building and pipings which are to blame. Whether there is a systematic way to deal with this I don't know. To get entire building to pay for renovation of all pipings, so that floods no longer happen.

If this is not the case, then you can pay for renovation of your neighbour's pipings. (might be cheaper than legal proceedings)

Also some may consider ugly walls in bathroom a cosmetic fault - IE you can still shit and shower even if walls are ugly.

Put following on table:
1) renovate neighbour's bathroom
2) file legal motion and live with it until neighbour's pipings are fixed (legal costs, time)
3) search for well built building, fix this flat cosmetically, sell it and move

4) live with ugly walls in bathroom

[VJ]

The neighbour has a washing machine and she needs to put its drainpipe in a bidet. Failing to do that floods her bathroom, and then leaks to ours. So it has nothing to do with fixing pipes. Her son claimed after the 3rd flooding that the drain of the washing machine was properly installed, but this turned out to be a lie.
So it is not the building's state that is causing it; all pipes in the whole building were replaced 5-6 years ago, shortly before I bought the flat.

She denies or is not aware of having the floodings, even though my girlfriend once helped her clean it (to prevent it leaking to us). There also was once that we had water leaking, she claimed not to have any water problem, but was standing with her feet in water. I understand she is an old lady, but her actions are causing problems. and dangers. Two years ago, the building administrator wanted to call social services as she did something dangerous (we suspect gas related), but her son interviened - she no longer has gas. Now, the building administrator is more reluctant, as just one person has problems, so they let us handle it. But there still are dangers: water and electricity don't mix well. Combined with her version of everything (and past events), it is more and more clear she is no longer capable of living alone. She currently has a nurse coming daily, so there should be no need for her to mess around with water in such amounts.

It tooks years of discussions to solve the noise problem, with complaints from multiple neighbours. No way they will renovate the bathroom. So 1) is off the table. Option 2) would give us a lot of stress (and no certainty where it will lead to). I've invested a lot in this flat, it is in a perfect location, fully renovated and fully to my taste. Selling it would make me loose a lot of money, so 3) is a no-go. The problem is not the ugly walls, the problem is the permanent threat of new floodings, so it is worse than just 4).

[UtwigMU]

Then pay for permanent drain pipe installed to her washing machine. Should cost about 100 EUR, in Poland there are lots of plumbers.

It is probably lesser evil, then going through other paths.

[VJ]

The washing machine was the previous cause, she may now just be forgetting to close taps (which is what plumber and security guard think - they were there. As she claims she never had any water, she will not allow anyone to do something. Plumber checked that the pipes are ok. Her son has blocked off all communications, and there is no talking to her, so we are stuck.
We will contact local police to ask for advice, they helped us wel in the past with other problems.

[VJ]

I learned that my girlfriend was more afraid of the neighbour going to the police with her made up stories, but police at least reassured her that they always listen to both sides, and that there is no need for us to worry. The biggest problem is how to prevent it from happening again, and the police says this is one of the most difficult things in our situation... and there is no real solution... It would be different if the flooding would have been on purpose, or if nobody would be taking care of her. It seems that the 4 hour per day nurse is not enough, but that is hard to prove. So first our problems will probably get worse before they get better. The general advice is to let the insurance company deal with it all.

Yesterday, the guy from the insurance company came to assess the damage, and most likely today the installer of the doors will come to remove the doorframe and check for inside damage. The outside frame is visibly damaged, but a bigger problem would be if the second one would be damaged as well.

[Technoid]

Weird that the bathrooms don't have a central drain ?!?

[dZeus]

Weird that the bathrooms don't have a central drain ?!?

Do you mean like a shower drain but at the lowest point of the the bathroom itself? That's actually not a bad idea for any room containing a bath or washing machine... (in case the thing malfunctions and floods)

Sadly I've never seen that before. Maybe it's a Swedish thing?

[UtwigMU]

We have those in Slovenia and they are pretty much everywhere in buildings built post WW2.

So this is why I was wondering how can neighbour be "guilty" of flooding. Even if you open all taps, emergency drain should suck it up. and bathroom floor should be couple of cm lower than other rooms with barrier near bathroom door. So unless emergency drain is clogged, flood cannot happen.