Latest proposal for CSP

[Brian Ellis]

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29551063

This looks like a very interesting proposal which could be implemented very quickly. However, 2 GW is not an enormous quantity of electricity, roughly equivalent to 2 large thermal or nuclear power stations.

[Jammrock]

The Sahara dessert is a great place to produce engery. Not a lot of wild animals to harm (except some bird migrations, but I don't know if they pass through that part of Tunisia), no civilization to bump up against, and lots and lots of sunshine year round.

I think renewable energy will be North Africa's major export within 20 years. 2GW is a good start. If it works well it will be 10GW-20GW in no time.

[Dr Mordrid]

Solar concentrators are under heavy fire in.the US because of a phenomenon called "streamers."

It seems that birds are attracted to the pilot plants bright lights and fly through the beams, only to be instantly ignited into flames, leaving smoking trails and bespoiling the area with significant quantities of overcooked flesh. Estimates run as high as 28,000 so far. In one incident the local official was giving an onsite TV interview when the cameras caught several streamers in the background.

Many of the victims have been protected raptors and migratory species, and the populated Southwestern US regions where new plants were to be built are along migratory pathways. Several planned facilities are now on hold or being cancelled.

Oopsie.

[Brian Ellis]

Solar concentrators are under heavy fire in.the US because of a phenomenon called "streamers."

It seems that birds are attracted to the pilot plants bright lights and fly through the beams, only to be instantly ignited into flames, leaving smoking trails and bespoiling the area with significant quantities of overcooked flesh. Estimates run as high as 28,000 so far. In one incident the local official was giving an onsite TV interview when the cameras caught several streamers in the background.

Many of the victims have been protected raptors and migratory species, and the populated Southwestern US regions where new plants were to be built are along migratory pathways. Several planned facilities are now on hold or being cancelled.

Oopsie.

I simply love it when stupid statistics are quoted. Wow! 28,000 roasted birds with the world's largest CSP station generating over a hundred times what this proposed scheme is designed for! Furthermore, situated on a known migration route. Let's compare this with some published figures. In this tiny little country, over 2 million birds are killed for ambelopoulia.

Just have a look at these charts. They don't necessarily agree because they cover different areas with different methods of determining the mortality.

Bird_mortality_chart.jpg (N. America)
Graph_BirdMortality_2005.png
nature_image.jpg
1.png

Most of the concerned environmental organisations, such as Birdlife International, The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds Et cetera consider that renewable electricity generation that kills a small number of birds is, by far, preferable to the vast numbers of birds killed by fossil fuels generation and the likely increase in global temperatures resulting from this. This measured approach makes a lot of sense.

The proposed CSP station is in the middle of the Tunisian desert away from any migration route (actually a relic of the now-defunct Desertec project, which had already taken this into account.)

If you really want to protect the birds, let's go back to cave dwelling and not even eat any or keep cats! In the meanwhile, keep a sense of proportion, rather than make rash posts.

[Dr Mordrid]

/sigh - this isn't bloody Europe.

We aren't talking about sparrows or crows, which are a dime per ton, but endangered and protected species. Especially raptors which under US law are totally protected under penalty of prison terms. Enough so that the state and federal environmental protection agencies are involved.

[Brian Ellis]

/sigh - this isn't bloody Europe.

We aren't talking about sparrows or crows, which are a dime per ton, but endangered and protected species. Especially raptors which under US law are totally protected under penalty of prison terms. Enough so that the state and federal environmental protection agencies are involved.

It is about time you stopped typing through a hole in the back of your keyboard. You know absolutely nothing about the protection of birds in Europe as is obvious from your comment. Get with it before you make any more stupid remarks.

The history of bird protection in Europe goes back to 1922. Since 1979, the European Union has declared that every single wild bird is protected, with derogations which may be applied by individual member states for hunting, crop protection et cetera. Such derogations have to be approved by the Union.

I do not pretend that everything in the garden is lovely as there is far too much poaching, particularly of edible birds. The great shame in this country is ambelopoulia, where 2 million songbirds are illegally killed for the pot each year. However, one can almost say that this is sustainable because it happens every year, but that is no excuse. Unfortunately, not many poachers are actually caught but when they are the punishments can be extremely severe including quite long-term prison sentences.

There are about 380 bird species recorded in Cyprus, of which over 300 are regularly observed. There are about 45 species of falconiformes (what you call raptors), all of which are highly protected species, some of them endangered according to the Cites red list.

When I lived on this island in the 1950s, there were hundreds of Griffon Vultures and Egyptian Vultures. Whenever a sheep or a donkey died, they circled round the corpse within a matter of minutes. Today, there are no native Egyptian Vultures and there is one colony of artificially maintained Griffon Vultures, I think about 20 specimens. Why is this? The full answer is not known, but it is certainly anthropogenic, possibly better farming hygiene, Rachel Carson's pesticides, idiots shooting them and loss of breeding space. To maintain the colony is costly but it is an essential part of the European Union's policy on maintaining bird species.

Another part of the policy is the establishment of special protected areas (SPAs). Every member state has the obligation to implement these on migration routes and in specialised habitats, where protected birds breed or roost. This is particularly important for waterfowl as well as falconiformes. There is absolutely no question that windfarms or tower type CSPs could be built in SPAs. The situation that you quote in California therefore simply could not occur in Europe.

However, there is another type of CSP that does not affect birdlife at all, the parabolic trough. I'm pretty sure that these could not be built in SPAs, as planning permission would be unlikely to be granted. They still take up a lot of land, they are less efficient and more expensive. There is no reason why they cannot be implemented in other places where the tower system may be unsuitable.

In summary, concentrated solar power is almost surely going to be the mainstream method of obtaining renewable electricity 24/7, combined with a small amount of nuclear power, over the next decades, at least in southern Europe and North Africa. Personally, I see no reason why the USA cannot follow the same lead, because it has plenty of desert away from migration paths.

May I respectfully suggest that, before applying finger to keyboard, you think!

[Dr Mordrid]

Calm down. I'm aware of the situation in Europe, but you're acting like you have no idea of the political pressures the Audubon Society and other environmental groups can bring to bear. Cripes, they can stop a major project based on just speculation. Toss a giant scale realtime bird roaster at them and they go thermonuclear.

[Brian Ellis]

Calm down. I'm aware of the situation in Europe, but you're acting like you have no idea of the political pressures the Audubon Society and other environmental groups can bring to bear. Cripes, they can stop a major project based on just speculation. Toss a giant scale realtime bird roaster at them and they go thermonuclear.

The Audubon Society more or less follows the policies of Birdlife International, of which it is a member. Birdlife International has recommended that properly sited wind farms are preferable to fossil fuel electricity generation. As far as I know, a similar policy statement has not yet been made regarding CSP but there is a very strong analogy to wind farms.

BirdLife International is a global coalition of more than 100 country partner organizations. As the United States Partner of BirdLife International, the National Audubon Society administers the IBA Program in the U.S.

I suggest that it is not Audubon that is likely to go thermonuclear, rather than yourself. I only hope that when the lights go out because of a small number of roasted birds, you will remember that CSP is almost surely the future (40 years) mainstream supply of electricity; I hope you get enough!

Audubon's Position on Wind Power

Summary

Audubon strongly supports properly sited wind power as a renewable energy source that helps reduce the threat posed to birds and people by climate change. However, we also advocate that wind power facilities should be planned, sited, and operated in ways that minimize harm to birds and other wildlife, and we advocate that wildlife agencies should ensure strong enforcement of the laws that protect birds and other wildlife.

[Dr Mordrid]

Look Brian, I don't want to get into a kerfuffle over this but you are totally missing that this is a LARGE controversy in the western states where these things will be built. Wildlife and environmental groups, some state agencies, desert habitat preservationists and others do NOT share your enthusiasm for solar thermal, period. You may think that's wrong or silly, but it is what it is.

Don't shoot the messenger.